| Author | Message | ||
     Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.152.134 |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7636577.stm | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
That's crazy..and oddly it's like a scene from the apocalyptic novel I'm currently writing. Actually, I'm using it. :-) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.78.200 |
I didn't yet see the movie, but is this at all like Shyamalan's THE HAPPENING?... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Kinda. Though they're sort of trance like in the film. Acting without perceived emotion etc... The above is crazy - I mean it's clear that they're trying to kill themselves right? What else could be going on? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.17.17.188 |
Intense live POV Frogger competition? | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
yeah... could be. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I guess the breakup of Abba hit the girls more than we suspected... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 88.111.14.192 |
... which is more than the cars did. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I couldn't get this out of my head, while laying in bed last night. There's something about the girls being twins that just makes it all the more unnerving. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c93_1222391289 A longer piece. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.152.134 |
Supposedly one of the girls stabbed someone a couple of days later then jumped off a bridge over the A50. Also, they were on crystal meth during the M6 excapade. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.152.134 |
http://www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk/news/Hospital-wait-stabbing/article-272425- detail/article.html | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Crazy! But how do you know it's the same woman as one of the runners? Anyway, this is so odd. For one thing, they just won't die! For another, why were they let back on the street? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.85.217 |
Ironically, if you were to try and slap some sense into them, they could have you arrested for assault and battery.... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Heck, does that normally work for instilling sense in a person? A slap? (I knew I was doing something wrong in all my attempts in reasoning over the years...) ;) | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.186 |
Crazy! But how do you know it's the same woman as one of the runners? I only believe this to be the case as the guy who originally posted the first link claimed the two were connected. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
Oh yes, A. The movies have taught me that whenever a woman is being hysterical, you slap her roughly across the face. It always restores sanity and calm, to the highly-stressed female. If those two peskery twins had been slapped, we'd never'a had these problems! | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
ideed--that post is particularly effective when read in a sean connery drawl, btw. ;) | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Actually, I'm really in the mood for one of those films right now. Not to mention a strong man who could tell me to "get a hold of" myself. Though Jimmy Stewart was always my favorite, and I don't think he was ever a slapper... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.227.21 |
Jimmy Stewart would shake his women, but I don't remember him slapping them much. But imho, the most shocking slap of all time remains: Othello's, of Desdemona. Every filmic production I've seen to date, whoever the actors... it's always a gut-churning, deeply disturbing moment.... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.227.21 |
Of course he wasn't trying to slap sense into her. He was just being an asshole.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.133.69 |
Shakespeare's dramatic reputation rests largely on his ability to characterise, and to express depths of character through dialogue. 'Othello' is a chilling portrait of male jealousy – whether sexual or career-based. Iago is one of the greatest psychopaths in literature. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
No, Jimmy Stewart used to drug his women. Witness The Man Who Knew Too Much. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
There's a chilling moment in Donnie Brasco, too, when the Joe Pistone character resorts to violence with his wife after spending his time undercover with a gang of psychotic crims. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
But he also knew better than to take advantage of a women who'd had too much to drink, as in The Philadelphia Story, when Katherine Hepburn realises that he failed to try anything with her the night before despite having every opportunity: Tracy: 'Was I so unattractive, so distant, so forbidding?' Connor: 'You were extremely attractive, and as for distant and forbidding, on the contrary; but you were also a little the worse - or better - for wine, and there are rules about that.' | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I love that film. Though I always feel bad for Elizabeth - who was so clearly hopelessly in love with Connor, and yet so invisible. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Liz gets some great lines, though, and Ruth Hussey knows how to wring every last laugh out of each of them. She doesn't even need to say anything; witness her reaction to Uncle Willy's groping. It's obvious to Tracy and Dexter (and the audience) that Liz is in love with Connor, and at the end Connor realises it too. I can see the two of them slipping off to a registry office in the next few days. I think she'd be good for Connor: wise and knowing but fun, too. The whole film is brilliant, and the cast couldn't be bettered. In addition to the four leads, I'm particularly fond of Virgina Weidler as Tracy's precocious (to put it mildly) younger sister. And even though he only has two scenes, Henry Daniell is brilliant as the unscrupulous editor of Spy Magazine. I understand that's where the editors of the satirical magazine of the same name got the title from. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Yes, but you (or I at any rate) get the sense that Liz feels she'll be the one he settles for. That while she may be wise and fun in her own way - and that Connor might really come around to seeing that, that she'll never have the spellbinding beauty or charisma that men gravitate towards in Tracy. And for me, that's the one sad part about an otherwise very happy and satisfying ending. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Or maybe I'm just projecting, as I relate so much to Liz. There's a sadness there though - an almost resigned and sensible understanding that Liz has - that while totally in the backdrop, actually provides more depth and realism to the film for me. Anyway, I'd run away with Connor any day. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
Um... have I seen that movie?...  | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
I know what you mean, Adriana; you do get a little bit of a sense that Connor might feel he's 'settling' for Liz, and that she'll be all too aware of that. But I think that once Connor's away from Tracy, her magic will fade for him a bit; he's pretty level-headed at the beginning of the film, and you get the feeling he's almost been bewitched. Away from Tracy, he'll appreciate what he has with Liz. If you haven't seen The Philadelphia Story, Craig, rent it forthwith. Intelligent, sophisticated, funny, and acted by pros who've forgotten more about comedy and timing and how to get the most from each line than many modern actors will ever know. Plus Cary Grant shoving Katherine Hepburn in the face. Check out Jimmy Stewart's drunk scene with Cary Grant; Stewart ad-libbed a hiccup and caught Grant off guard - you can see him look down and smile in an effort not to start laughing and ruin the take - but Grant held on, ad-libbed a perfect come-back of his own, and it stayed in the film. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I agree, Barbara. Once away from Tracy, Connor would come to his senses. And I think he and Liz would have a lovely life together. And far more fun then he might have ever guessed. I'll have to watch it again for that scene, I hadn't noticed the smile...  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.151.199 |
Is it me or does this kid seem to go UNDER the bus? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7598674.stm | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Call me an old meanie, but the frigging idiot deserved that. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.151.199 |
I know. I keep doing this thing of watching chavs ride their bikes recklessly around traffic and being eager to see them hit. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.91.127 |
Thanks to our wonderful medical care system the idiot gene thrives. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.151.199 |
I keep seeing myself walk past them, not helping. That's awful, isn't it? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.91.127 |
Nope. That sounds completely normal. A massive chav pile up sounds like a good day out. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.112.60 |
Yes, that is awful. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.129.151.199 |
It is because it means my fear of them has turned to hate, made me lose sight of my humanity. I wonder if my dislike of them showed and that's why they picked on me all along? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yeah, let's have a row about chavs. It's been too long. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.91.127 |
It's all in the genes, you know... Is what I would have said if opinions without exhaustive qualified debates were valid. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
And I blame Bush. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Ha. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Great, thanks, another crash to ease my anxiety. And the kids sure take their time initially going over to check on him... I guess they're in shock, but still. I am totally freaked out by cars these days. Every time I get in one, I'm half expecting it to crash. And it doesn't help then when I was a teen, whenever I'd ask the radio how I'd die, the song "Last Kiss" would play. (A car crash song.) | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
That's weird. Whenever I ask the radio that, the song "Turning Japanese" plays. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.91.127 |
"Turning Japanese" is slang for being run over. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
hee hee | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
It's actually slang for something else. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.163.48.186 |
Indeed it is... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
So is Gary's phrase, "I blame Bush".... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I used to prefer that song when I thought it was some sort of social comment, not just about wanking. And what a stupid term - who really makes a 'japanese' face when wanking off? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.77.246 |
Barbara, A: I got THE PHILADELPHIA STORY, and will report on it soon as I see it... though my TBV (To Be Viewed) pile is a little bigger lately... hell, I got IRONMAN to see tonight - you don't want me to miss IRONMAN for some silly old PHILADELPHIA STORY, do you?!?  | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
No, I don't. For one thing, I'm not so sure YOU'll even like it. ;) Have fun tonight. I quite enjoyed IRONMAN. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.10.167 |
No, I don't. For one thing, I'm not so sure YOU'll even like it. There you go again with those strange stereotypes, A! I stocked up on dvds today from my local (free) library, I'll have you know... and I got three in fact (the limit - did I mention they're free?)... PHILADELPHIA STORY, plus TO BE OR NOT TO BE (1942) and PICKUP ON SOUTH STREET (1953), though I was debating between that last and Proto's rec of GRAND HOTEL, a silent French version of FALL OF THE HOUSE OF USHER, rewatching THE DROWNING POOL (Newman's passing, plus I'm jonesing for some Ross McDonald) or one of the Rutherford Miss Marples or ALEXANDER NEVSKY or CARNAL KNOWLEDGE or (the b&w) IMPORTANCE OF BEING EARNEST or THE SWEET SMELL OF SUCCESS or or or... ... of course, I'm never gonna not watch IRONMAN tonight.... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
It's unlikely you'll enjoy any of those films, Craig. ;) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.225.178 |
Wow, A. You have such faith in my tastes. I liked IRONMAN. It was a fun ride. I get the opinion it might have been better, had I been more familiar with the Ironman mythos; the little bits I caught were pretty cool - especially the post-credits scene/cameo. I heard there was a Hulk angle, but I must have missed it.... Good sfx, sure. The middle sagged: maybe I missed something, but Tony Stark seemed to be making a suit for no particular reason (once he got back home). Hey, it's a candy bar - yummy to eat, then - fuggedaboutit! | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Look forward to your thoughts on Philadelphia Story, Craig. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.160 |
I've got an even bigger choice tonight, Barbara... The Philadelphia Story, or Speed Racer?...  | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
As I've said before, I tend to like the origin tales - more story and character, less action then the follow up films. I enjoyed Iron Man, but probably won't watch any sequels. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
I disagree that he was making it for no reason. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
| ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.14.122 |
I like Robert Downey, Jr. He just gives intensity to his roles, a particular kind of intensity, making even static indies like GAME 6 and far-misses like THE SINGING DETECTIVE strange spectacles. Johnny Depp's nothing but Robert Downey, Jr.-lite. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Johnny Depp is hit and miss for me - for one thing, there's something unhinged about him that isn't as versatile in how he uses it... I see them as polar opposites in that way - Depp is always off boy Depp, Downey uses his 'off' quality, to BECOME other people. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I like Depp. he does seem to me to be different in most of what he does - Contrast Fear and Loathing (where he was completely believable as Hunter S) with Pirates or with his performance in the first Nightmare on Elm St. If I see his name on the poster I know there's going to be at least one good performance in the film (shame that in Charlie and the Chocolate factory it was from the squirrels) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I've never seen Depp in a film in which he delivers a "wow" performance, though I do like most of his stuff. Donnie Brasco was damned good. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.191.188 |
I like Downey Jr. - he's made quite a comeback after the mess he got himself into a few years ago. Zodiac and Iron Man are both decent films, and I've heard he's good in Tropic Thunder too. Some other Depp performances I've enjoyed: Ed Wood, The Ninth Gate, Benny and Joon, Dead Man. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Depp always seems to have a wry smile in whatever role he does. Like he's thinking "It's me, everyone. It's me. Depp." But then maybe that's the roles he gets offered. Nah, I'm wrong. Forget it. He's one step above Keanu anwyay. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.182 |
Tropic Thunder is terrible. The Saturday night audience I was with sat in embarrassed silence throughout. People on the screen were running around and shouting and every few minutes I thought: "maybe I should laugh now". I didn't. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.183.204 |
Wow - that's the first negative thing I've heard about it. I guess I'll find out for myself later this month, when it opens here. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.196.65 |
It'll be too late then. They'll have your dosh. Don't do it, Huw! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.179.78 |
Speaking of dosh... how much does a cinema ticket cost in the UK (and elsewhere, for that matter) these days? Over here it's the equivalent of about 4 pounds (about $8). God, I've just realised - the last time I saw a movie at a cinema in the UK must've been when I saw SASQUATCH in Cardiff in the seventies! | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.254.209.182 |
In Canada, it's about £6 or £7 | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.246.180 |
10 Euro at peak times, which is about £6 I think. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
In the UK, about a fiver. And £45,675 for the refreshments. They put lead weights in the sweet bags, you know. | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
Unless you go on a discount day, it's about 9$. Some chains more, some less. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
There's a teeny tiny cinema in Dublin that hasn't changed since the 70s. The old lady behind the ticket office waved me in when I didn't have enough money. I'll take that kind of warmth over a loud sound system any day. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
In the cinema in Hebden Bridge, old ladies come round in the interval with a samovar. It's true. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.254.163 |
Thanks for introducing me to a new word. "Ladies". | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Old ladies are the earth's supreme form. Invisible but our redeeming feature. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.202 |
When I was living in Taipei (in my uni days in the 80s), I'd go to see cheap kung-fu and hopping vampire movies with my classmates at this rundown (but dirt cheap) old place on the outskirts of a huge, sprawling night market. The place was literally infested with rats and cockroaches. I made the mistake of putting a box of popcorn on the floor for a few minutes, and when I reached down to get it I felt a little tail and saw something scurrying away in the dark. Thankfully there's no rabies over here... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Sounds scarier than the bloody films! What an atmosphere it must have had, though... sounds like stuff for a story. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Oh but, Tony, old ladies can be a right royal pain in the arse. They wield silent power born of their gender and infirmity. I've frequently felt like nutting a few. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Urm, apart from those ones then. Also they ask you what you're writing in cafes, which means I can't ever go back there again. Message; Honest folks; Truman Capote is the best writer. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.245.6 |
They're generally nice, though. There's something going on now as bad as apartheid or any other historical injustice you care to name, and that's how we treat old people. They're just us with illnesses and we don't take their opinions seriously and treat them as a problem. We'll look back on this with shame one day. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I agree. The message is; we don't want to know what you've learned. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Is it because the world has advanced technologically and because we know more than them about it we feel they are irrelevant? Is it because they aren't trendy or attractive, and need work? Is it because they remind us of death in a time when youth is so celebrated? These old ones were once kids, teens, knew love and sex and all that. Is that impossible for us to believe? Or frightening? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
There's that argument that Western culture, being money-driven, is largely geared towards younger people - those with expendable income. Old people have less to give to those who shape the culture, so they're sidelined. But that's me just Bush-bashing again. I expect the issue of older people is going to be massive over the next thirty years, since our population is ageing. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Nah, you're right. But the younger the folk who drive the media the more it'll happen. But then maybe we'll see them again one day, and it'll be like finding a forest we never realised was there, hidden behind Tesco and the rack of Nuts magazines. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But the younger the folk who drive the media Not just media, but corporations and the like. And I don't think it needs to be younger folk at the helm. Older folk are eminently capable of promoting yoof culture if it lines their pockets. How old is Rupert Murdoch? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Murdoch is 77. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
True, true. The old bastard. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
There are just no arenas for old people to become respected. It's all sport, pop, models, etc. Nobody respects politicians, philosophers, novelists, etc: arenas in which age matters. That's probably because the latter group have some - invariably corrosive - input into the very culture that celebrates the former, and are therefore sidelined, too. Blair was too busy trying to be a celebrity to take his country seriously. It's a conspiracy, you know. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
We keep seeing drama groups for kids, art stuff etc. Is there an equivalent for the old? Do we see drama groups in old folks homes? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
What would be the point? They're no use to the economy. Basically, as long as national welfare is focused on economic-survival/prosperity and that alone, old folk won't get any respect. But this is part of a bigger picture: that focus on the economy has also resulted in far higher rates of depression, which affects younger people as much as anyone else. Something's going to give. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
And yet old folk are always banging on about "making their own entertainment"? Is depression caused by the economy? I think we are so often fooled by peasent children, happy to see a camera. Parents don't want to have anything to do with their kids because now they don't have to. And they've evolved enough to see that, actually, kids are just scum. I wouldn't want to spend five seconds with an idiot. Why should your dad or mum? Choice has increased because of the economy and civil evolution. We now have houses large enough to never see our kids. More leisure choices. It's the future. Love is dead. No longer will we be subject to its tyranny. Life was never as we think it should be and never will. In my completely biased and primative opinion. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Is depression caused by the economy? Oliver James discusses some interesting data in his book Affluenza. It's persuasive. He draws on WHO data which suggests strong positive correlations between affluence and emotional distress. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.185.114 |
One thing I like about living over here is that there is a strong tradition of respect and kindness toward the elderly. It's not uncommon for two or even three generations to remain in the same house, especially if the elders need care. Even when they don't need care, they tend to remain close - it's very much a family-centered culture. Old folks' homes are very much a rarity over here. When I'm on a bus or a train, I often see younger folks get up and give their seats to older people, even on long journeys. Last week I was waiting outside the pain clinic and an older guy saw I was in a lot of pain - he got up and guided me to his seat without a second thought. I felt quite embarrassed, as he was a lot older than me. At least he didn't seem to be ill - he must have been waiting for a relative. Still, I felt pretty guilty! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
A vague study, it sounds. Like trying to detect disease by its smell. I never said economy wasn't a factor. Just expressing again that discussion without all the facts easily leads to a firmly held political view. How many poor families do you see that have happy people in them? Maybe misery is the norm in poor and rich families, but FEW the happy, poor families have something OUT OF THE ORDINARY? They are bascially hippy families who train their kids to be exactly like them, in very clever ways.They train them because they are so in love with their own ways of life that they wouldn't miss out on a chance to inflict it upon someone, anyone else. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.113.53 |
Maybe less academically, the book STATUS ANXIETY does something similar. I remember some study that said once we get over about $10,000 a year, the happiness curve levels off. Just watched INTO THE WILD over the weekend. An amazingly strong film that feels like it's from the '70s new wave. It's right up there with FIVE EASY PIECES. Most films feel like waiting for a lift door to close. This one knows the correct pace at which our minds and hearts can assimilate information. The main character says that careers are a 20th century invention and he doesn't want one. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.113.53 |
Huw, you're right. (Where's over here, by the way? Hong Kong?) Confucius was right about that, at least. A Korean friend told me that when you meet a stranger, the conversation subtly steers towards trying to determine who's the elder, so people know what role to take. Confucianism has screwed up the society in other ways, though, unfortunately. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.185.114 |
Proto, I have INTO THE WILD here ready to watch. I've been looking forward to it, as I thought the book was interesting. Glad to hear it's a good one. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
And might I add, that if any HAPPY chav families are around it is because they are able to thieve, vandalise, rape, defraud with almost 100% impunity. They are allowed to take out their anger on us. We, are not. There are many, many factors that "affluence = depression" does not detail. But then it IS a political opinion, therefore you, or I should take it with a pinch of salt. It is fashioned with a streak of socialist anger and is designed only to carry on that feeling. Be wary of sound bite sociology. The kind that fits on a protester's banner. Or into the neat ryhme of a Billy Bragg song. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>How many poor families do you see that have happy people in them? James also suggests that unhappiness is a consequent of relative deprivation. That is, in unequal societies, misery is higher than in less unequal societies, despite the fact that income is similar. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Be wary of sound bite sociology. This is what the data suggests. If you have alternative data, let's see it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Even the most pro-right thinker in the business argues in favour of this: Stephen Pinker. His solution is regulation, and not state modification. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
And Pinker can hit you with a mighty barrage of data. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Jealousy? I don't think we can blame Bush for that one. Maybe God, or nature. Or ourselves? Surely not that! Anyone but blame ourselves! It is basically saying people are unhappy because they are scum. Which I what I've always said. All this with no real evidence that people are anymore depressed than they ever were. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.246 |
I have Into the Wild! Will watch ASAP. And is it ok for the kids? I do like them to see stuff that promotes thought, and don't mind swearing in movies if it means they well get some sort of nugget from it. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>This is what the data suggests. If you have alternative data, let's see it. No, what I'm saying is that making a FIRM POLITCIAL opinion on data is pointless. The data is at an early state. Like I was saying about having exhaustive debate between truly qualified people before taking to the streets with banners. You admitted as much above, though. So I'll go easy on you. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>Even the most pro-right thinker in the business argues in favour of this: Stephen Pinker. His solution is regulation, and not state modification. They argue in favour of Stephen Pinker? What is this Stephen Pinker? Regulation of what? Where is his data? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.113.53 |
Okay for kids? Hmm... do you know the true story on which it's based? Some bits are realistic/slightly grim. There's a little bit of domestic violence. Mostly, they might be bored by it, though. I'd watch it yourself first, though, just to be safe. And so you can cry at the bits with Hal Halbrook. I did. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.113.53 |
Actually, there's a bit of casual nudity, too, now that I think of it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Albie, go read Pinker's book The Blank Slate. Interesting in the context of our ongoing debates. There's a lot of I like in it. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
DOH! Always with your books! Go back to the soundbites. They're cheaper to buy. All I found on Pinker on the web was a quote saying it is impossible to predict society. Hence the moderate approach of change. Which devalues the very notion of gathering data, for me, if it cannot predict.(hence I still stand against his phantom barrage) http://sulkandpout.blog.co.uk/?tag=utopian-vision-steven-pinker | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
I'm sure we've had this very discussion before. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
All scientific data is about probabilities, and not absolute truths, so it's therefore essential. It's a guidebook and not the territory. The problems, I guess (and I'll sure you'll agree, in light of what you're saying above), is when folk mistake the former for the latter. That's true of religious texts, too, isn't it? Or any text, come to that. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
And his quote reveals A LOT of assumption. Which isn't qualifying him for the exhaustive debates. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>I'm sure we've had this very discussion before. That feeling, they can only say what it is in French. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Probabilities? I would probably argue that is as yet too strong a word for sociological psychology (which are the two most phantom words in the dictionary.) But you have to have a system. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>And his quote reveals A LOT of assumption. Which isn't qualifying him for the exhaustive debates. Judging him on the basis of "sound-bite sociology", are you? Sorry, couldn't resist that... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
I judge him on both charges of making assumptions that no sane man could offer(we should distrust any formula for changing society from the top down, because it is likely to have unintended consequences that are worse than the problems it was designed to fix.) and of making soundbites. But sound bites are ok, so long as they are in a body of work that backs them up with sound detail. I'll assume for now he supplies this. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yes, and plenty of it. He's very readable, too, unlike too many academics who write like shit. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
So going back to the above, Pinker argues that misery born of relative deprivation is based on a fundamental facet of human nature: envy. But that it's exacerbated by choices in the form of social structure: the regulations which allow for gross inequality. So his solution is: reduce inequality in order that this facet of human nature is moderated. Seems eminently sensible to me. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
But that stems from a large assumption that we are all equal? Tabula rasa? We don't see that anywhere in nature. If so then we must have to compensate for this? Which leads to the problems of abuse? This model might work if you started mankind from scratch. With full equality. Don't you think the ugly will always be disatisfied? Isn't that nature? The less smart will always feel second class? Especially considering the fact that they were given remedial classes and special one to one tuition as a child. You really need to take the ape out of man. Take nature out of him. Take away his notion of beauty being best. Take away the notion of advancement. Do you think that the bin man,in this utopia, will be as content and as fulfilled as the doctor? Depsite the pay being the same? Despite the fact that his house is the exact same size? You will need to remove a lot. Like his sense of logic. To continue to see emptying bins as being the same as saving lives will require immense mental barrier defying logic. Just being devil's advocate. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.185.114 |
Proto - sorry, I somehow missed your second post in my haste to reply about INTO THE WILD. I'm in Taiwan. People here are a lot nicer and more open and friendly than in Hong Kong or China, I've found (but then I'm probably biased, having spent most of my life here). I agree about the Confucian influence (i.e some good, some bad), by the way. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
What utopia? Who said anything about equality of income? He's on about reducing inequality, not eliminating it. And he's certainly not suggesting that this will solve all ills. You should read his chapter on crime... In fact, you really need to read the book. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But that stems from a large assumption that we are all equal? Tabula rasa? That's exactly what he book challenges: no, we're not. And sensibly so. Tabula rasa is bollocks. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
I don't know if that sounds moderate. It sounds to me like drastic. If I might raise the word "genetics". We really need to get rid of the gene that gives people higher levels of testosterone. Given that people with high testosterone tend to be given to crime.  Unless you plan to compensate for that? You either remake man equal or have a constant policy of compensation. A massive need for screening would be required. Environmental control. Then we'd have to be able to afford all this. Assuming we could spare the man hours and not suffer elswhere. And stopping the spread of these inequalities would be a factor. Even if we could spare the man hours to compensate for the genetic differences, we couldn't allow them to increase in number,lest it became too much for society to carry. So forced marriages or chemcial castration might be needed. Then of course it might occur to society that it is pointless to allow for a small amount of these genetically challenged people, when a simple use of forced marriages and castration would end the problem completely. That would be logical. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
? Inequality is inevitable in society, but gross inequality needn't be. That's my feeling | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>What utopia? Who said anything about equality of income? He's on about reducing inequality, not eliminating it. And he's certainly not suggesting that this will solve all ills. You should read his chapter on crime... Why would you go so far and not go further? Why wouldn't you have total equality? Why would you stop people being as good as they could be? It seems to me that your model will be even more at the mercy of the pangs of nature. You cannot watch over billions of people to catch the petty minded moments before they become problems. That would require a big brother approach that would make us all spies. Of course, that wouldn't be a problem if those people were trained not to mind. For sure the psyhciatric field would have a boost in funding with this model. In fact it would become God. Given it was thought up by a psychologist that's not a surprise. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I remember the good old days when you only had a few hours over lunch on this board. I think some degree of inequality is inevitable because of genetic differences. As you keep reminding me, some people are born with more ability than others. This is why blank slate-inspired societies fail: when some people inevitably get ahead, they're suspected of duplicity. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
So the issue is then to legislate for minimising the effects of those inequalities. This isn't utopia; it's about being realistic. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
The minor differences in our dna have drastic effects on our lives. Compare man to chimp. You could train people to behave. But consider the problems I've raised with that. The reason why the world is the way it is is because big brother is not big enough to be in every home, making sure we behave. Nor can we afford to train everyone to be nicer. We are rich BECAUSE we do not do this. Compensation on a grand scale would be the socialist dream. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>So the issue is then to legislate for minimising the effects of those inequalities. This isn't utopia; it's about being realistic. I just wonder if it will be enough to sway the vast army of bitterness out there. Given that they have declared war on us and we don't seem to have noticed. They hate us. The chavs hate us. It is their religion. It is that deeply buried. How would you change that? As a for instance. Could you retrain a Muslim to become a Jew? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
And it is not only the chav you would need to retrain. But us too. Can you retrain us to trust them? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
It's not about retraining people. That never works. It's about transforming the social structure to make it more equitable. Change is effected through people's lived circumstances, and not just in their mindsets. An epistemological mutation can only be achieved via the 'grass roots'. Curly-Monty sez so. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
School? Should education be changed? Sort of sensitive mixed with the odd caning for cruel people? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
That's what I meant by training. It is a roundabout way of training, the way you would train a dog. Not to be saying anything controversial. But it is the same thing, but more subtle. You couldn't alter people's circumstances much. Most of it would be altering their opinions of their circumstances. How would you alter the circumstances of a violent person? Send him to anger management classes that would teach him to avoid situations that result in violence. How would he do that? He would need to be brought out of his entire life and put into one less naturally aggressive. Could you really do that? For so many? For so long? Or would you be relying on retraining? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
My last post follows on from Gary's, not Tony's caning suggestion. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Seems to me that we already have all the things in motion to change these people, but they just don't see a reason to change. They LIKE being who they are. When a chav is jeering at you in the street, he doesn't go home and feel sick about it. He has another laugh about it and plans to do more the next day. Now, take these babies from their chav parents, sterilize the parents, and then bring up the kids in a strictly controlled environment. Maybe you'd have half a chance. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
How are you characterising this angry person? Divorced from his social circumstances? Genetically angry? What is he angry about? If those elements were removed, would he still be angry? It needs unpacking. You seem to be repeatedly focusing this debate at the level of the individual, and suggesting that the social order is rigid. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Seems to me that we already have all the things in motion to change these people, but they just don't see a reason to change. They LIKE being who they are. When a chav is jeering at you in the street, he doesn't go home and feel sick about it. He has another laugh about it and plans to do more the next day. A lot of assumptions there. I used to live in a street full of chavs, and I don't recognise that description. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I didn't specify a cause of this guy's anger. Therefore I didn't limit it. His "life" is an umbrella term. It wouldn't matter what caused his anger, because angry people attract angry people and lives that nurture the anger. The question is how you take the primary and secondary causes of the anger out of the man. >>A lot of assumptions there. I used to live in a street full of chavs, and I don't recognise that description. Assumptions? There are only two options.1 The chav feels sorry for calling you a name and vandalising your car. 2 He doesn't care. It would be MORE of an assumption if you chose the latter, given everyone's experience of chavs. Or lack of experience in your case. Dye your hair ginger and walk down the same street. To be honest, Gary, you look invisible. They probably wouldn't even see you. I've been working in a community centre for the last ten weeks. And the chavs are scum. I heard a nine year old tell his mother to "go and fuck a paki" today. She didn't even tell him off. She was sat there picking her nose. I've HEARD chavs talk about how they like to have a lot off to people. Several times. They wouldn't do it if they didn't enjoy it. It's the prime motivation behind human nature. No assumptions there. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Assumptions? There are only two options.1 The chav feels sorry for calling you a name and vandalising your car. 2 He doesn't care. >>It would be MORE of an assumption if you chose the latter, given everyone's experience of chavs. I MEANT the former. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Seriously, the notion of a chav or criminal who feel sorry for hurting people is hilarious. I don't even think you believe it. You might get one or two. Most are psychos. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Or lack of experience in your case. Now that really is an assumption. I'd rather not go into details. But I lived in the same house as someone who might be described as a 'chav' for eight years. On a council estate. And I suffered their 'attitude', all right, and came through it with complex feelings. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
So, Albie, have you ever lived with a chav? Have you ever witnessed their swings of mood? Have you ever had to deal with the police when they show up at your door again? Have you ever had to console their mother? Have you ever had to deal with the cognitive dissonance involved in seeing their occasional redeemable side? Have you ever seen the violence enacted upon them by their father and had to pick up the pieces? Have you? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"Occasional redeemable side" says it all. What you mean is they were nice to you once or twice. A few minutes later they were stealing, vandalising etc etc. I've experienced that. You were taken in. They are nice to you when they want to be. It's part of their trick. A trick they fashion manipulating their mothers, truancy officers, police etc etc. Console their mothers? You mean the mother who comes around to get pally with you so you will drop the charges, and not even phone the police the next time it happens? Violence by their fathers? I don't see why that should alter anything. I haven't said that their condition isn't passed one. I've been saying that all along. I really don't see what you are saying because all you've observed is a surface. I don't doubt that you've seen people cry. But if you think that chav gave a toss about you then that's YOUR view of it. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
And yes i've lived with chavs. My brother is a chav. He's a prick. I lived next door to them all through my childhood, until a gang of them beat my dad up and we got away from the scum. And I still have to put up with the scum everday. The ones that move into the house and steal my mail. The one that set fire to a car, One of many they burned, right down the side of the alley next to my flat. HE was all nice and polite when you saw him too. An act, Gary. I get called names by them all the time. I AM the way I am because of them. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Actually, we took that 'chav' and transformed him into someone whom people now described as "a different lad". I'm not going to say that this was a question of altruism; it wasn't. It was a question of survival. And that is what we all need to consider when dealing with such people. Violence begets violence. The alternative is a lot of hard work. But change is achievable. If you've got the stomach for the long haul. We did. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>I AM the way I am because of them. >>>Surely not that! Anyone but blame ourselves! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Do you really think they go into a mood swing when they steal, vandalise, call people names? Evil is their natural state. Except when the social worker calls, then they are all nice and "I'm sorry". | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>I AM the way I am because of them. Does it not therefore follow that they are the way they are because of us? I mean, because of the way society is organised? Can you legitimately excuse your own mindset as a product of such social proximity, and at the same time call them naturally evil? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>I AM the way I am because of them. Why do you get to use an excuse and deny anyone else one? >>>Surely not that! Anyone but blame ourselves! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
(We've completely ruined this thread. ) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.253.195 |
I AM the way I am because of them. Is it time to separate the bleat from the chav? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
This is like mud! I think the chavs can be changed. We have to change the texture of the media, culture, of school. I think it could be turned round in a few years, really, if we got our act together. I can't say how without going on and on but I believe it. If it means anything anti-depressants helped me get rid of chavs, or rather a lot of them. I felt chilled, acted chilled, and they seemed to calm down around me, too, like that wild rabbit I managed to walk right up to when I wasn't thinking about it. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.207.127 |
Bad behaviour didn't come out of nowhere. It's either nature or nurture. Either: a) the genes of the population have changed b) the social structures have changed If you don't think it's a) then we're still working with the same raw materials as the people who fought Hitler and abolished slavery and discovered penicillin. It can be fixed, and rather easily I'd surmise. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Was thinking about this overnight: >>>And yes i've lived with chavs. My brother is a chav. He's a prick. I lived next door to them all through my childhood, until a gang of them beat my dad up and we got away from the scum. And I still have to put up with the scum everday. The ones that move into the house and steal my mail. The one that set fire to a car, One of many they burned, right down the side of the alley next to my flat... I get called names by them all the time. Is this it? And this is the basis of: >>>I AM the way I am because of them. All I can say in conclusion is: maybe you have to sustain some real damage - maybe you have to be really involved - before you realise that hate isn't any kind of an answer to this. It's you who's only seen the surface. You and everyone else who reckons that the whole issue would be sorted if only someone else did the 'culling'. I've got a challenge for you, Albie: do what I did. Take one of these people under your wing. Come down from your ivory tower of theory, get your hands dirty. See which strategies actually work and which don't. I'll give you a tip: violence and hatred only make it all worse. You'll see that after about five years. And then you'll slowly realise that you need an alternative method. Punishment without involvement is useless. They aren't bothered. What have they got to lose? Punishment only works when it's backed up by something other than the sting of the act. A real threat involves taking away something else, something which ultimately means more than the pain involved in violence. Caning in school? Won't work. Not without personal investment. And that's the difference between success and failure: personal investment. If you just sit at home doing nothing but building up spite, they'll smell your detachment and vitriol for miles. You want a solution to this? Get involved. Otherwise, just keep out of it and hope that someone else has the guts to do so. I don't agree with Tony or Proto: it's neither quick nor easy; it's slow and painful. But it is possible. Without hate - that just clouds your judgement. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Just passing through. (walks off whistling, with hands in pockets) | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Not quick, as such, but faster than all this mulling and fretting. And the cane - it was more the threat of the cane, or at least something to make kids see bad actions have consequences, whatever it is. But yes, they do need 'speaking' to. But this could happen in the lessons; the lessons need to bring about self awareness, insight into the way we tick. Instead of maths why not go around town, looking at what's wrong with the place, doing physical work? Connect people with their worlds. Get the public in more often, stop school feeling like an institiution. The cost of all this will be made up when crime goes down, which it would, I'm convinced. And yes; I think you do lose the right to grumble if you don't try and solve it. That's why I hate political satirists and news folk/the papers; why don't they get into politics themselves and fucking change it all if they hate it so much. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>>I AM the way I am because of them. >>>Surely not that! Anyone but blame ourselves! You think that a contradiction? Wrong. I never said people couldn't be so influenced by others that they have no responsibility about who they are. Show me saying that. >>Why do you get to use an excuse and deny anyone else one? I think it's a little more complicated than another sound bite. If you think your little experience with this chav means anything to this argument then I think you are have been a bit swept away with it. Like all chavs are like the ONE chav you had dealings with. ONE anecdotal account concerning a situation you are clearly emotionally/politically/professionally biased towards? I know psychology is at best loosely described as a science, but come on. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>Does it not therefore follow that they are the way they are because of us? I mean, because of the way society is organised? Can you legitimately excuse your own mindset as a product of such social proximity, and at the same time call them naturally evil? Do I go around stealing? vandalising? taking drugs? boozing in the street? annoying people? Frightening people? being racist,sexist? No. I am the way I am because of people who do this. By "way" I mean insecure and hateful of scummy chavs. If you could spend time in my brain you would know what I'm talking about. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
It is true that my family weren't rich at all, but they did love me, and the telly was good. Maybe love is the thing; I see some folk being quite nasty to their kids, and I see them drifting away from one another. Maybe that's it. But then I never seemed to meet any chavs in my day, either, just the odd horrible kid. Chavs do feel new and it would be nice if they could somehow write a history of themselves to peruse. (I don't mean to sound so glib there, btw) | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>Is this it? And this is the basis of: You meet one chav and you think you know the core of ALL chavs? HAHAHAHAH! Arrogance? You still think chavs are decent people deep down? HAHAHAHAH. Why? Because"Actually, we took that 'chav' and transformed him into someone whom people now described as "a different lad". " Where is he now? Where will he be in five years? This is HARDLY science is it? I wonder if I were to ask him, if HE didn't have anything to do with it? You think my experience is surface. I think yours is minor. One experience versus the hundreds I've had? But you've side tracked the discussion. I never denied that people can change. I put forward the notion that we couldn't possibly manage it because it would be a too large a task. One that I wouldn never want to take part in. Why? Because your pet chav has probably hurt a lot of people and for that I wish him pain not salvation. I could really care less about people. You're cheap. There's billions of you. And seldom few of you are worth knowing. Sorry. And I wouldn't bend over backwards to save one of you from a life of crime. I'd sooner just save the time and shoot the scummy chavs. And I know 90% of the people in the world are with me. No doubt you'll see this as barbaric. While I'll see your view as liberal socialist hogwash. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>All I can say in conclusion is: maybe you have to sustain some real damage - maybe you have to be really involved - before you realise that hate isn't any kind of an answer to this. It's you who's only seen the surface. You and everyone else who reckons that the whole issue would be sorted if only someone else did the 'culling'. Who said anything about "someone else" doing the culling? Don't you get me? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>Take one of these people under your wing. Come down from your ivory tower of theory, get your hands dirty. See which strategies actually work and which don't. I'll give you a tip: violence and hatred only make it all worse. How can a dead chav do anything? Oh, of course, the slot left empty by that dead chav will be filled by another. Like it's a job role or something. HAHAHHA. Ivory tower of theory? you ACTUALLY think you got involved. You didn't. How much money did this kid "borrow" off you? How much food did he eat? Where's your evidence that he is a changed person? And that he'll stay that way? Where's your evidence that this will work for most chavs? You've become emotionally involved to the point where you have no scientific claims to your views. I don't claim to have any scientific basis for mine. Just cold hard logic. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
! Some local chavs have been given the chance to make a short movie, and have changed their lives a bit (a lot) because it's made them think. I think we have to do a weird Star Trek sort of thing and think of them as literally alien, which makes us feel safe (we always feel ok about the very alien rather than the slightly similiar). Oh, I'm rambling. For me, the chavs scare me, and they can see it, and we fall into this routine. I think our culture is designed to back up a lot of their views (Drink! Be Big Brothery horrible because it gets you on telly! Buy cheap golden things!) and it needs to be changed, boring and difficult as that might be. When I look around me everything seems made for chavs, not telling them they should be different, have different values. I feel like a sidelined figure, even more than I used to be. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>And then you'll slowly realise that you need an alternative method. Punishment without involvement is useless. They aren't bothered. What have they got to lose? Punishment only works when it's backed up by something other than the sting of the act. Death, Gary. Death. Look around you at the world. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK. It's not just the chavs. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT YOU OR ME. If the government decided to kill all criminals tomorrow there would be a tiny protest and that's it. See the REAL world. Not the one you studied into existence from books. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
We once let a couple of chav lads in and offered them some DIY work. Marie gave them lifts to the chemist for a few days (they once nicked a toy from the back seat, but we saw it and told them and they gave it back) and I think she was trying to help them, show them we were nice. When they said they'd do the work they said they needed some money up-front for materials. Guess what happened. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Um, I'll duck. It's not like I'm adding anything. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
But that's not a valid experience because their mother didn't cry on your shoulder, or something. And their aunties didn't come round to tell you what changed lads they are. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
"Bad behaviour didn't come out of nowhere. It's either nature or nurture. Either: a) the genes of the population have changed b) the social structures have changed If you don't think it's a) then we're still working with the same raw materials as the people who fought Hitler and abolished slavery and discovered penicillin. It can be fixed, and rather easily I'd surmise." It's genes. Kill the people with bad genes. Easy. IT'S WHAT NATURE HAS BEEN TRYING TO DO FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS. Now that we are intelligent enough we can do it to a finer degree. Or we could go Gary's route, which would probably take GENERATIONS to work, if it even works. Which it won't because the bad genes will always be there. Waiting for even more horrible combinations. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
My nice chav encounter was one telling me my back tyre was flat on my bike, which was actually very nice of him, to be honest. But I threw it back at him by pulling a face as I thought he was being cheeky (only found out he was being serious a few minutes later when it was too late to apologise). Once on a bus I was told by a chav he'd been dragged up not brought up (I'd just told them all to stop throwing coins around the crowded bus stop - I was the only person to, too  ), and when I asked him what he meant his friends got furious and told me to fuck off/threatened to hit me - he was genuinely insulted by my trying to be understanding. I think it is up to us smart, generally comfortable folk to do the first thing, though. I just don't know what. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Stop selling booze? Take away drugs? Put brainy stuff only on the telly? Stop selling shit food? Do drama and art and writing at school? They should try it somewhere, in one village, just to see what happens. If the victorians could do giant upheavally things for industry why can't we try this? It's as important as building a big steam bridge or whatever it was they used to do. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Gary seems to think your experiences mean nothing. Like we are all stupid. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
He has hope, is all, which is admirable. I hope he's right to be honest. I sort of swim between the two of you. Don't forget Gary's lovely, will you, btw? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
>>I think it is up to us smart, generally comfortable folk to do the first thing, though. I just don't know what. Mass murder with me at the helm. I'll find you an administrative role, Tony. You can count the torn shell suits. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
 What DOES that clipart mean? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I was thinking of going out late at night and unvandalaising their zones, tidying their gardens and stuff. Maybe writing I LOVE YOU on their lamp posts in nice, seriffy print. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Hope for what? Saving bad clusters of bad genes for the gene pool to pick up on later? Nice work. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
No doubt some fool will now say "Oh, I suppose you'll want to kill off all the spastics and criples." | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
Which will require me to not only accuse them of straw manning me, but also bad spelling. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=35986&in_page_id=34 How far would Gary have got with a REAL chav? I bet his chav was a soft option. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
THIS is what it should be like. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1494369.ece No doubt some fool will now make a sly remark about reading The Sun. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
OH SHUT UP! THE LOT OF YOU! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.88.62 |
AND YOU! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.65.70 |
"It's genes. Kill the people with bad genes. Easy." But genes can't change that quickly. You're talking about one generation! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Albie, I hope you've calmed down a little by now. I don't want a flame war. I want a discussion. In response to your comments, I'm puzzled by the fact that you claim: >>>I never denied that people can change. ...and then add: >>>because the bad genes will always be there. You seem to be simultaneously suggesting that people can change and people can't change. I can understand your dilemma here, however: >>>I put forward the notion that we couldn't possibly manage it because it would be a too large a task. ...even if I don't agree with your Stalinesque solution. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
I never lost it. You did. And obviously because you are emotionally too close to the subject to be objective. If you say you aren't then you are contradicting the notion that you saw into the heart of chavery. >>You seem to be simultaneously suggesting that people can change and people can't change. Yet again you don't take the courtesy of thinking about what I've said, other than to attack it. People can change psychologically. But the genes are unlikely to. That's my main argument and one you seem to dodge around. We have survived because weak genes are discarded. You want to keep them in the gene pool, forever damning humanity to a fragile peace. >>even if I don't agree with your Stalinesque solution. And here we see his other trick. He coudln't make a joke about reading The Sun so he relies on vicious analogy to blacken my character. You are incapable of honest discussion with someone who opposes your views. I bet you've been preaching to the choir all your life, when I'm not around. You are scared of me because you are just not that good at debate. You haven't countered any of my arguments. You don't deserve your views. I'm not angry. I'm frustrated that you dare to comment and not take it seriously. Even my Stalinist solution is far more logical than yours. I could come up with one much more kind. I don't see why I should. Because your pie in the sky communist dream is so unlikely to happen. Now why don't you tackle the problems I've raised, and stop seeing my cold logical non-smiley posts as a personal attack on you? I put forward that your anecdotal account is no sound basis for you to get on your high horse about. Nor is it the basis for a working philosophy for solving the problem of EVIL. Of course, knowing you, and EVERYONE else I have EVER debated with on the blessed internet, you'll be too afraid and unqualified to tackle ACTUAL points I raise and resort to your usual "I'm more experienced than you." "You are Stalin." tactics. Why not side step the issue and comment on the fact that I've used the word "evil" instead? You were probably thinking it. It would be SO much easier than having your entrenched views challenged by an actual critical mind. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
If you think my debating style is far too ruthless then I'm sure Joel or protodroid will be kinder to you. Personally I prefer to see it as a war, because being attacked keeps you sharp. And if you are not being sharp then you are insulting the discussion. And why mess about? Ideas are more important than people's feelings, or even people themselves. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
>>>I put forward that your anecdotal account is no sound basis for you to get on your high horse about. >>>And yes i've lived with chavs. My brother is a chav. He's a prick. I lived next door to them all through my childhood, until a gang of them beat my dad up and we got away from the scum. And I still have to put up with the scum everday. The ones that move into the house and steal my mail. The one that set fire to a car, One of many they burned, right down the side of the alley next to my flat... I get called names by them all the time. Anecdotal? National crime statistics, 2008: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0708summ.pdf | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
>>>If you think my debating style is far too ruthless Your debating style is fine. It's just that you used to write things like GARY FRY SOON BE DEAD and MR SHIT BOOKS. And the last time we had a row, you disappeared for months after writing a review on Amazon about a book you'd never read. Sound debate? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
There you go again. You never learn. I do those things BECAUSE you can't debate. BECAUSE you get on your high horse. Because YOU insult me in ways that YOU feel are nothing more than living up to your degree and your standing. You are not aware of yourself. And YES. Anecdotal evidence. MANY MANY MANY times over what you supply. That's called proper evidence. YOU meet one chav. Then you supply vague info about him being a changed person. There's nothing vague about having a chav spit on you from a passing bus. Nothing vague about being punched by one for no reason at all last year. I could go on and on. So could anyone here. You just don't have an analytical mind, Gary. Probably very good at remembering info. Although incapable of using it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
>>>I do those things BECAUSE you can't debate. Pretty handy when excusing your own yobbish behaviour, aren't you? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.234.27 |
I don't know much about this whole argument, but I am pretty sure that Ideas are more important than people's feelings, or even people themselves is about as close to Stalinism as it gets. Isn't it? I'm totally lost, but isn't this whole row about "chavs"? So isn't it semantics-based - what is or is not a "chav"-of-the-mind?... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
Albie, I once tracked you on another message board in which you described me as a "personal friend/personal nemesis". That sums it up well. Vice versa, of course. We'll never agree on this issue, but I'd like to propose that we each respect each other's viewpoint and leave it here. Your choice. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
>>Pretty handy when excusing your own yobbish behaviour, aren't you? You're a bully and you don't even know it. You think I said those things because I'm a bad person? No. Because YOU can't stand to lose a debate. And when you debate you ALWAYS use your sly tactics and sly insults to get me going. You've always done it. Just like every other person who lost a debate to me. You're scared because I'm uneducated and yet I know enough that your point about me using anecdotal evidence was wrong. Another dropped issue, you'll notice. No "yes, you were right, my one case study was vague, not only in the telling but in the experiencing of." By which I mean such interacttions are filled with vagueness. Nothing vague about being clobbered. As I said. Maybe I just get lucky in these debates. Or maybe I'm just working a lot harder than you are at them. You couldn't even stay level headed enough to appreciate this statement; "Ideas are more important than people's feelings, or even people themselves " You had to charge in and embarrass yourself again. Where would man be without ideas and the continuation and development of ideas? He'd be an ape. If people have to die to retain that then that's how it has always been, not just for tyrants but for every society on this planet. But trust you, bull in a China shop, to not see the subtlety of that. No, quick, you've just read the sentence, how can you turn it into an weapon? Quick, Gary. Quick. Don't lose face to albie. He doesn't HAVE a degree or even a job. He's stupid. Hit him with something, anything! Don't bother to think too hard about your next blow. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
I guess not, then. >>>"You couldn't even stay level headed enough to appreciate this statement; "Ideas are more important than people's feelings, or even people themselves You had to charge in and embarrass yourself again." Oh dear. As for reading quickly and not thinking, I think you'll find it wasn't me who made that comment above. Bye. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
Leave it? Seems a bit weak. Unless you are admitting defeat. That would be strong. The only flaw in my ideology is cruelty. The flaws I see in yours are logical errors. How can you live knowing that? How can you continue to hold dear your experience with the "chav" when you have not supported it? I've attacked the framework of your belief system. And you are willing to walk away to continue adhering to it? That's...ghastly. But if it upsets you to be on the defensive...I don't mind letting it go again. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.243.58 |
I think you'll find it wasn't me who made that comment above. Methinks it's time to take Zed's cue - stick my hands in my pockets and whistle the f*ck outta here. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
You should allow for the usual delay while I'm writing my messages. And what's wrong with that line? Oh, a simple typographical error. Which PROVES what a snob you are. And yet in your ignorance you still feel that's a valid riposte. That shows how shallow your debating skills are. You're a thug, Gary. You deserve me. All those open issues you don't need to counter because you can simply laugh at a typo and all your thinly disguised middle class friends will pat you on the back for it as if it was a worthy blow to me. You're a losing duellist who scuttles to his second and points out the cheapness of my shoes. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 87.102.76.119 |
But that's what you get when you base your world views on vague events. I blame the scholastic system. Too many hippies lecturing. Too many crying socialists implanting their ideas. Leaves people like Gary to wander afield with unchallenged idealisms. But, as long as he's slightly better on the keyboard than me, that's all that counts in his world. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.143.186.238 |
What typo? I'm on about you referring to Craig's message and thinking it was mine. Look again above. Anyway, I've nothing else to say. Goodbye. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Oh, this stuff never ends. It's like trying to plug an english plug into a European socket. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.11.148 |
Here, I'll take the bullets for you Gary: I meant it Albie - YOU ARE A MEAN OLD MOUSTACHIOED STALINST!!! If you could, you'd fling chavs, like pitching hay, off tall buildings. And shame on the both of you - we could have TWO novels with all the words expended on this thread! <---remember, he makes everything all better | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.11.148 |
Oh - a "Stalinst" is one who parks himself in a stall. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.202.157 |
All this is stress release, really, isn't it? Last night I got so frustrated with intermittently-working (worse than not working at all) broadband that I flung my keyboard across the room. The keys exploded off it, letter-scrapnel (much like this debate). I read them as I picked them up like runes and all told me to calm down: Control, Pause/Break. There was no Escape. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I've had enough. Albie, behave yourself. This message board has my name on it and is an embarrassment to me. And don't start complaining about censorship. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Proto - that's excellent. Did you make it up? Maybe we could have a chav discussion-only thread, cos this does get darned wearisome. But yes - it's a touchy subject, one obviously close to people's hearts. Wanna wipe this thread? Apart from the bit about weird Swedish girls? And to be even more back-tracky, I met a plump Spanish girl with the most tasty accent ever and the most beautiful eyes today (and little red glasses), and now want Britain taken over by Spanish people, strange Spanish language-only posters in shop windows and all. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 38.113.181.169 |
Off-topic, of course, but one of the interesting things to do once one has met the various members of the board is to imagine their voices saying the things they write. Am I the only one who does this? Tony, you of all people must do so as well. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Absolutely. And it's sort of funny because I could never see any of them - or me - saying the things they do here. I say less in real life. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Oh, this stuff never ends. It's like trying to plug an english plug into a European socket. Tony, sometimes I could kiss you for your strange but very astute perceptions. :-) | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.209.205 |
Yes, it happened exactly as I wrote, Tony. There was also the space bar, now that I think of it. Let's wipe the thread, including the bit with the Swedish women. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.44.153.74 |
I'll delete the thread when Albie has realised his mistake. I wasn't referring to a typo; I was referring to the fact that he misread Craig's message above (05:19 pm) as being from me. And then he accused me of 'rushing in' when it was in fact him who was doing so. Should I expect an apology? That would be strong, after all. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.227.95 |
... And you know I was just having some fun with you, right Gary?.... I've become paranoid of late, vexing over every little word I write. I figure the only safe jokes are the hugely over-the-top, crazily-outrageous, clearly non-serious ones... and then even those, I bite my nails over afterwards.... You all realize what's going on, right? Mercury Retrograde. The number one effect of which is: a breakdown in communication. You hear that, Stalbie?... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.234.17 |
I didn't like the whole thing. We shouldn't be looking at people having dangerous mental breakdowns on television. Just my opinion. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
You're probably right. Hey - aren't you meant to chew over every word? The Swedish women thing - it's just such a fascinating thing. It's unbelievable, like seeing a ufo - intense and dreamlike. It's probably not healthy though to want to see such things though, you're right. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
The thread stays. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Tony - the comment about the plug and the European socket...priceless mate. Craig - I love you mate. You're like a bull with a deliberate goal in mind. Prof - I'm not entering this debate, even though you both make sound arguments, but in fairness to Albie, it must get to him having to deal with these people everyday. Simple as that I think. I used to feel like him. It's not pretty where he lives. I know you're not ignorant or blind to this, mate, just thought I'd throw some obvious perspective on it. Ramsey - the thread should stay. Good. If it doesn't the Lurker at the Threshold, and I don't mean Albie, will be rubbing their talons in glee. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.23.233.246 |
Of course, Albie is having a horrible time. That mustn't be forgotten, and must certainly be forgiven. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.244.40 |
Hey - aren't you meant to chew over every word? You mean, as a writer, Tony? Probably. But this is a message board. And I've got this problem, being a bull with a deliberate goal in mind... and many are the gored casualties, that stupidly get in my way. It's best, whenever I say anything that anyone disagrees with, to nevertheless just respond: "Absolutely Craig!" Trust me, it's safer to just agree with me, 100% of the time, than arouse my ire. Do I end now with a  or a ? Ah, the mighty emoticon powers I possess, to make others squirm.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
 | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
And relax. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=r49K_BN-G0I | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
That was hilarious. I mean the 'On the Buses' spoof. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>What typo? I'm on about you referring to Craig's message and thinking it was mine. Look again above. >>Anyway, I've nothing else to say. Goodbye. Well...if you insist on having a name similar to another members then that's your look out. It's not like you haven't attacked me before for such things. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Albie, peace. Okay? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Mt brother's called Craig. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>I'll delete the thread when Albie has realised his mistake. And cover up the fact that I poured cold water on your chav experience? If you are a logical person then you would accept the criticism that ONE experience is not a solid basis for a philosophy. Now, if you were to repeat that experience a hundred times, at least, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Just as if I were to have only ONE experience of chav thuggery to tell of. But who would lose face to me? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Well, here's a list of things we had to deal with from that one person: Got drunk when 13 and took a golf club into an off licence and demanded alcohol Stole a car Got suspended four times from school and then permanently excluded Got placed in special needs school - rarely went Stamped on special needs school's headmaster's car after being disciplined Stole from the house Threatened me Hit his mother Brought soft drugs into our home Arrested for being drunk on vodka, taken to hospital for stomach treatment After he'd moved out, had a dog; went to girlfriend's house for several days and left dog to strangle itself over a fence because it hadn't been fed Had illegimate child at 16 after one-night stand Far, far more other stuff that's too raw to mention | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Why can't I have peace and war? See it as a game of chess, Gary. You know why people play chess? To insult their opponent. But if that feels too damaging... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
That's ONE person, Gary. You see how you don't grasp my point? I couldn't make it much clearer. One example is not evidence. Turn around an hundred such people and I'd have to consider my view. I have no doubt that a fleet of people such as you could eventually change a hundred chavs. Given enough time and resources. But why would you think society would WANT to pay for that sort of thing? Do you see protests in the street asking for more funding? At best you'll see some mother crying on TV with a dead son asking why this happens. Do you know what the majority of people think when they hear that? Shoot them. That's not Stalin. That's reality. People don't care if these people can change. They don't want to pay for it. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I certainly do see your point. You're saying that it would take an army of altruistic individuals and copious resources to effect this kind of change. If you look above, you'll realise that I said, "I can understand your dilemma." I agree: it's a big problem and certainly not an easy one. I just don't think your solution is a good one. But as I also said above, let's agree to differ on this. We've both had our say, and besides, Ramsey doesn't want it to go on. It's his board. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
And you know my way will happen eventually. Not in prisons but in the womb, or the pre-womb test tube. Once the study of DNA has its zenith -who would want to give birth to someone with a more than ten percent chance of being violent, less emotionally intelligent, a thief, a loser? And you KNOW that the study of DNA will come up with a viable answer for crime long before you could. It's a simpler process, and they get more funding than your field. Look at the use of pills over psychotherapy. Has anyone even proven that psychotherapy works on a grand scale? Last I heard it just made things worse. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
The left was arguing in favour of eugenics in the 1930s. The Fabian Society, for instance, including George Bernard Shaw and H G Wells. But theory about the interplay between genes and society has moved on since then. Shaw's affiliation to - sorry - Stalin is regarded as a mistake by apologists. It's very much an assumption that criminal behaviour is grounded in biology. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Which is not to say that biology may predispose people to this kind of behaviour. We just don't know. But to base a political opinion on this lack of knowledge would be a mistake, wouldn't it? Didn't you say on another thread that without absolute knowledge (or even debate between experts), it's foolish to take a stance? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Ramsey doesn't want to see us debate evil? If he doesn't want to read it, he doesn't have to. How would it reflect badly on him? If he's pandering to Chris Barker then he should really learn not to. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>Which is not to say that biology may predispose people to this kind of behaviour. We just don't know. We burn all the cows in a field when foot and mouth breaks out. We use the techniques that we have at the time against a dangerous foe. We don't let the infected live while we find a cure. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
And we KNOW who are infected. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
But if you equate social dysfunction with a disease, then you have to rely on a notion of 'faulty' biological - 'bad genes', in your parlance. In which case, surely we need proof. And that we don't have. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Albie, you're talking ugly and ignorant bullshit. Shut up. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>And we KNOW who are infected. Revealing word. Infection is something that isn't innate. Above you claim the problem is genes - something that is innate. Can't have it both ways, can you? Infection implies something that the social order adds to someone, much the way an animal can catch a disease. The logical solution is therefore to eliminate the source of the disease, and not keep killing animals! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Recidivists. Genetic link or not. There's a core of people who if they didn't exist, would not be missed AT ALL. But there is a genetic link. Testosterone levels and crime. Know why India has little crime, despite their poverty? Low testosterone. That's why they tend to be physically smaller than us. Why do you think we dominate the world? Testosterone. Tests of criminals show that the more testosterone the more violent they were. Will your treatment alter their genes, even if it alters their view of life? No. Face it. They never evolved. There was no other factor in what they are. They have always been like this, down the generations. And they are not victims of this. They are just trained to be what they are by their genes. And by the minds those genes sponsor. Evil stems from genes. That's fact. Unless you believe God was a nonce and fiddled with his monkey men? Is that why they are criminals? Violent apes =violent men. Genetic similarities tend to cluster. Hence races. People with a disposition towards being fat or fair haired. Violent ape genes never left us, they just dropped to the lowest point. The stupid and the ugly. And occasionally they find their way into nice families. Dormant for centuries. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>Revealing word. Infection is something that isn't innate. Above you claim the problem is genes - something that is innate. Can't have it both ways, can you? YOu debate semantics? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT WITH YOU. You divert the discussion when you know what I meant. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
You attack ME and not what I'm actually saying. You KNOW what I mean. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>The logical solution is therefore to eliminate the source of the disease, and not keep killing animals! The source is DNA. The infection is through birth. DNA. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Ideology is part of it, but that stems from dna too. Ideology is a symptom. You want to treat symptoms. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>Revealing word. Infection is something that isn't innate. Dna doesn't have to be innate. A gene can be passed from one branch to another by birth. Surely you know how sex works. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>Infection implies something that the social order adds to someone, much the way an animal can catch a disease. You have taken a clearly poet word and abused it into a false argument. Straw manning me. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
POETIC Word, I meant. How will you twist that? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
This is why you anger me, I wouldn't be surprised if you did it on purpose. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Look above. Plenty of opportunity for me to be angered by you. But I'm not. As I say, it clouds your judgement. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Just reread what you said: >>>We don't let the infected live while we find a cure. OK, I missed that. Still don't agree with what you're saying, but that's by the by. Now...can you be reasonable and accept my proposition of a truce? | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
How about this: a five mile wide asteroid hits the planet and wipes out everybody. That'd solve this problem  . Yep, nothing like jumping with size ten kickers, is there. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.196 |
I saw THE PHILADELPHIA STORY, Barbara. Indeed, a great film. The flaws?... The themes, to me, are a tad dated; and, based on a play as it is, it's naggingly static, in all sorts of areas. They seem to be talking around subjects; I can guess at what those subjects are, but they are so hiding what they seem to want to say in this film, you wax more confused than enlightened, most of the time. But what can you say about Grant, Stewart, Hepburn, Hussey? They are actors the likes of which we probably won't see again, and perfect here - playing upon/with/against each other like the masters of the craft they were. Grant shoving Hepburn in the face, in practically the opening seconds of the movie, was pretty shocking, and a real hook. Glad you made me watch it! | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
So glad you enjoyed The Philadelphia Story, Craig! I recommended it recently to another friend who'd never seen it, and he thought it was great, although he added it's one of those films you have to watch a few times to catch all the great lines. 'I understand we understand each other' was one of his favourites; I've always liked George blustering 'A man expects his wife to behave herself. Naturally.' followed by Grant's quiet 'To behave herself naturally.' And when Stewart is reading the list of rooms from the main house's intercom system, and says, with an air of disbelief, 'Stables', and Hussey replies immediately 'That's so they can talk to the horses without having them in the house.' Yes, it's a bit static (as you note, probably the result of being based on a play), and a tad dated, but you soon forget that in the sheer joy of the wordplay, and a quartet of pros at the top of their game, clearly relishing the dialogue and characters. Mind you, I have a soft spot for Virginia Weidler's little sister, Dinah, who very nearly steals the movie ('I can tell there's something in the air. I'm being taken away.'). However, there is something more serious at the centre of the film: the relationship between Tracy and Dexter. Grant plays Dexter with such charm that it's easy to overlook the pain that's under there: he's a recovered alcoholic who realises his drinking played a large part in wrecking his marriage to a woman he loves, and underneath the banter and one-liners there's a lot of sorrow. Plus the movie's theme about 'celebrity chasing' is as relevant now as then, and Tracy has a great line about the gossip magazines and incessant speculation about the private lives of public people and the fact they're often betrayed by those who are closest to them: when her mother asks 'Is there no privacy anymore?' and Tracy replies 'Only in bed, mother, and not always there.' Anyway, glad you liked it, Craig! | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
My logic gates remain open and fully functional. No impairment from last download/upload conference. Suggest logic breakdown is an external influence. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.200 |
The repartee is surely the meat of that movie. Its approach to "love" - movie-world love, as filtered through the moral/ethical universe established in/by movies; that always seems so much more conservative than reality, especially nowadays - is actually a little shocking: Tracy's father's affair with the New York dancer, is something that just happens, no big... and besides, on some level, Tracy drove him to it! That would never fly today, as neither would a climactic Jimmy Stewart asking Tracy to marry him, with Hussey recoiling nearby, in the film's final moments. These are themes, or the handling of themes, that are actually ahead of their time... maybe that won't ever appear in Hollywood-formula movies.... But the whole issue of Tracy as the icy "goddess" is what felt dated to me: too abstract, too idealistic, and not altogether clear. Are we to surmise that Tracy and Grant never consummated their marriage?... Are we to assume that Tracy and Stewart did consummate something, down by the pool?... All of this seems veiled in innuendo, and it so dances around its subject, you feel more frustrated than anything else. You get the gist of it, but not the substance: these three come off like a bunch of angst-ridden twenty-somethings, to some degree. But that's okay, the whole is greater than the sum of some minor, semi-flawed parts. Good stuff! What's next? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.4.200 |
My logic gates remain open and fully functional. Okay, Albie, let's test 'em: What's heavier, a pound of feathers, or a pound of lead? | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Yes, that moment when Stewart proposes to Hepburn is a bit of a kicker; you figure he's in love with her (or thinks he is), and while on one level you think 'Oh, yes, that's a fine solution', one look at Hussey's and Grant's faces quickly disabuses you of this notion: they both look gutted at the possibility Hepburn will say yes, and for a few seconds you get a real sense of several lives hanging in the balance and hinging on Hepburn giving the right answer (and when the two choices are Jimmy Stewart and Cary Grant, it's hard to know what the 'right' answer is; either man was a perfectly acceptable male romantic lead at the time). I don't know whether or not Tracy and Dexter consummated their marriage; I rather suspect not, given the fact that they were married and divorced within a year or so, something that strikes me as improbably fast in those days unless one party can plead non-consummation of the marriage. I also don't think anything happened between Tracy and Mike at the pool, especially given Mike's statement the next morning that Tracy was 'Rather the worse - or should I say better - for wine, and there are rules about that.' Next up? SINGIN' IN THE RAIN. Before you run for the hills, yes, of course, it's a musical, and I know there are people who break out in hives at the thought of people bursting into song every five minutes or so. But the numbers are infectiously catchy in that late 1920s sort of way, and they're beautifully integrated into the film. The dancing is superb (Kelly doing THAT number, of course, but Donald O'Connor is equally good, especially in 'Make 'Em Laugh'), and Cyd Charisse, making her major movie debut, is drop dead gorgeous, with legs a mile long and sex appeal to burn. Most of all, though, it's a knowing, affectionate, and very funny look at the world of moviemaking; listen to the Louella Parsons-a-like woman announcing the arrivals at the film premiere, or watch the scene where the cast and crew try to come to grips with filming in sound. Jean Hagen's vapid star with the cheese-grater voice is a brilliant creation: 'I make more money than Calvin Coolidge - put together!', or her would-be affectionate words to the audience: 'If we can bring a little joy into your boring, humdrum lives, all our hard work ain't been in vain fer nothin'.' | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
I won't be running for any hills. Singin' in the Rain is an unassailable masterpiece. I'd put it up as the greatest film musical and a great film about film. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Oh, I agree, Ramsey, that Singin' in the Rain is a masterpiece, and the greatest movie musical of all time; unfortunately, An American in Paris the year before got all the Oscar love, but Rain beats it hands down. And amidst all the song there's a very funny and knowing film about the movie biz. It's simply that a lot of people hear the word 'musical' and automatically tune out, which is a great shame. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.208.214.11 |
Singin' in the Rain is a marvellous film. I've always been a fan of Stanley Donen ever since he borrowed my mum's car to stand in for Sophia Loren's when they were shooting the 'helicopter chase over the bridge' sequence for Arabesque at Crumlin in South Wales (obviously it's a longer story than this), and of course because he was a big horror film fan and was planning to film Stephen King's The Dead Zone for many years. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.228.183 |
Yes, that moment when Stewart proposes to Hepburn is a bit of a kicker; you figure he's in love with her (or thinks he is).... Another of the film's mature handling of the theme of "love," and effectively foreshadowed when Tracy practically shouts down Grant about how much she loves George, only to have Grant basically shrug and say, in effect, that's not really love. The film seems to have, as a running theme, the idea of delusionary fantasies, versus cold hard realities: the final act is the morning after the endless party, and everyone's hung-over from their carefree endless dancing, the sunglight of reality breaking in like hammers-on-skulls. Tracy's worst moments are when she's the Off-Screen "goddess," the ultimate ivory virgin, nude down by the water like forbidden Diana; those whispering hints of O.S. bacchanals, that we always know were just as sterile, as they were "lewd." Who else could have pulled this character off? Tracy Hepburn's quavering voice and quivering lips were never better.... I've seen SINGIN' IN THE RAIN, but you know, I really haven't seen it in many many years. I should revisit it. And I love a good musical! A world without SINGIN', without TOP HAT, without CABARET - without CASABLANCA?!... Nope, not the world I want to live in. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I'm probably one of the few people here who wouldn't run for the hills when someone mentions musicals - I genuinely like them - and yet I have a confession: I've never seen Singin' In The Rain. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Singin' in the Rain is great, Gary - you'd love it. I don't mind musicals at all, as long as they're done well. The Happiness of the Katakuris is sublime. ;-) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I've never seen The Sound of Music, either. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I wouldn't bother. Maybe I've been scarred by childhood memories of those hideous smiley Aryan kids in leidehosen camping it up in the mountains, but it's terrible. :-/ | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.184.66 |
Watch The Happiness of the Katakuris instead. ;-) | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.50.191.46 |
>>What's heavier, a pound of feathers, or a pound of lead? Am I dropping them onto your head or throwing them at your face? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I've always been impressed at how dark the heart of Sound of Music is. This is a feelgood happy musical where the characters all finish up on the run from the Nazis. The scene where the eldest daughter's boyfriend (conscripted into the army) is about to capture them and talked out of it explores themes of friendship/love over duty to the country and is really extremely tense. Remember it was made by Robert Wise. he's a director who really knew what he was doing (most of the time). | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Not when he helped vandalise Ambersons - at least, I should like to hope not, though he kept on defending his actions to the end of his life. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
SOUND OF MUSIC? Now I'M embarrassed about this thread. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Look, with a little patience, see what we can do with chav scum: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2006/11/17/soundofmus ic.jpg | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I did qualify the statement with "Most of the time" | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.226.216 |
Two fairly recent musicals I greatly enjoyed: CHICAGO, a bleakly-feelgood dystopian fantasia; and DANCER IN THE DARK, an unapologetically melodramatic fantasia. |