| Author | Message | ||
     Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
"Commy fag", eh? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=itEucdhf4Us | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
"I believe the blacks will take over"... http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FIY5lqi0eXQ I know this is sort of cherry-picking, and that there are folk just as ignorant everywhere, but still... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.236.193 |
Simple way to make this problem go away: Barak Obama should come out and be totally open and candid about his relationship with Bill Ayers (sp?), and put rumors to rest (or not). He can't; because Ayers is an unrepentant unlawful bomber, and that doesn't look good for a Presidential candidate to be too closely linked with someone like that, even if it were in some remote past. It's not fair to call Obama a terrorist because of that relationship. But it's not fair either to just expect every citizen not to, perhaps, be disturbed by that relationship. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.133.198 |
Just like John Kerry's failure to explain that Vietnam incident, which cost him the last US election. Except that the reason he couldn't explain it was that it never happened, as the Republicans openly admitted a few months after the election. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"Just like"  | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
To sort of quote Ian Hislop on last night's HIGNFY - "McCain is reduced to claiming Obama is a terrorist because Barack sort of sounds like Iraq, and Obama sounds like Osama". | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
The American authorities have never supported bombing or terrorist activities anywhere of course. They didn't turn a blind eye to IRA fundraising for decades or train terrorist groups anywhere in the world like Iraq or Aghanistan. That would make all the leaders a bunch of pisstaking bastard hypocrites if they had. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.85 |
...But that's election politics in America: stand still and stare down your opponent... the first one that breaks a bead of sweat, the other point and shout how he can't handle pressure... the other guy, start shouting how your opponent's pointing arm is curiously, fascistically angled.... We are now in the process, here, of dismantling the entire existence of a strange new political figure called "Joe the Plumber." They're giving him an a**hole examination the likes of which neither candidate has gotten so far. What disturbs me, was a comment made by someone on the left - being interviewed by Rachel Maddow; blanking now who it was - who was trash-talking McCain over this Joe. The person wasn't attacking Joe for what he did... he attacked McCain, because McCain brought Joe up during the debates... and he should have known, that bringing up an average citizen like that, in that context, that way, would mean that that average citizen Joe would have his whole life splashed on the front-pages, examined under a microscope, turned inside-out... it was terribly insensitive of McCain to do that.... ... and the subtext: all you little people out there better think twice about ever raising your voice to question your exalted, nigh-upon-beatific leaders, if you know what's good for you.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.203.119 |
Albie, you suggested elsewhere that I'm too polite to people. So go fuck yourself. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.203.119 |
Albie, I'm sorry. Not well. Infected leg. No sleep. Please ignore me. I'll be nice. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.108.58.24 |
A case of something sounding really funny in my head and being much less funny when typed. (The leg's not a big deal, BTW, just painful and keeping me awake.) I'm just tired of the way – and the weapons of mass destruction were an even bigger example – that rumour and speculation come to be the basis for public opinion, because the Internet flattens out people's cognitive processes and they identify priority in terms of number of 'hits' or 'links' rather than relationship to an outside world they choose only to encounter via a screen. It's the same with 'climate change scepticism', Holocaust denial and the belief that the moon landing was faked: just because there are ten thousand links to blogs espousing a view does not mean there is evidence for it in the actual world where there are people and places and things like that. Reality always loses the debate. But it's reality, not blog-writers' cleverness, that determines what will happen to us. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.23.185 |
I hope the leg is better soon Joel! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.190.239 |
Hope your leg gets better soon, Joel. Have you had it seen to by a doctor? I had a leg infection last year that turned out to be cellulitis - nasty stuff. Take care! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yeah, Joel, check out this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7677013.stm The comment by Mark Lawson says it all: if the author can't be found on the Net, he doesn't exist. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.8.255 |
I'm just tired of the way – and the weapons of mass destruction were an even bigger example – that rumour and speculation come to be the basis for public opinion.... Joel, if you're referring back to the Ayers link, again, Obama simply has not come out and made clear this relationship. The biggest excuse given so far, by the Obama campaign, why Ayers is not an issue/should not be an issue, is: Ayers was bombing things when Obama was 8 years-old... that kind of answering back to a charge, is insulting to my intelligence, whatever the nature of the dirt being dug up. Obama claims - Peter-like - to not know the guy, never knew the guy, what guy?... We don't know the whole story. If it's not a big deal, then come out and say it's not a big deal, and put it to rest - ah, but that nagging problem I initially stated. (And where's Ayers to put things to rest? Laying very low himself, methinks....) No one knew there weren't weapons of mass destruction, until there weren't weapons of mass destruction. Hindsight is everything. Anyone rememeber Colin Powell's role in promulgating those rumors? Today, he's come out, supporting Obama. Will the left bat an eye?... I doubt it. Was the war ginned up? Sure it was, and nations everywhere dove right in. It's like this whole global financial crisis now - just take America for the moment: the right's blaming the left, the left the right, Republicans Democrats, Democrats Republicans, poor people the rich, rich the richer, etc. Look back, cut through the fluff, see well, and you remember: there were no clear Jeremiahs out there, preaching loudly, against the wind. Not one. Everyone had their fingers in the pie; everyone was looting their own neighborhoods. We all of us make up a world.... | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
It really amazes me that anyone runs for high public office, in America or elsewhere, knowing that if you aspire to lead your country, or play a part in leading it, your entire life is going to go under a microscope and people will be doing the modern equivalent of tearing apart and examining the entrails to expose anything that could be used as ammunition. Who among us - apart, perhaps, from Mother Theresa - could stand that sort of scrutiny? Imagine if your own life were subject to that sort of examination. Who'd come out spotless? That said, the Americans seem to bring it on themselves, with a presidential campaign which essentially lasts for two years. The media and the public are like little children: they want constant stimulation, and no sooner are they given a bright and shiny new toy than they're bored with it, and want something brighter and shinier. In the absence of any real new news to report, in a campaign that drags on for what seems like forever, people are reduced to rooting around in cupboards, digging up whatever they can find in the hopes of a new sound bite or news story. For heaven's sake, the recent Canadian election campaign only went on for 37 days, and there was still time for a half-dozen or so candidates to have to pull out because someone dug up something faintly scandalous about them (mostly the fact that they were captured on film smoking pot years ago; fer Chrissakes, if we're going to disqualify anyone who ever smoked pot from running for election then the candidate pool suddenly got a heckuva lot smaller). If we'd had an election process that lasted two years instead of a little over a month, I doubt there'd have been any candidates left standing. | ||
| Laird Barron (Laird) Username: Laird Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 71.212.79.124 |
"The media and the public are like little children: they want constant stimulation, and no sooner are they given a bright and shiny new toy than they're bored with it, and want something brighter and shinier." Canada is above all that, naturally. I'm rather apolitical, certainly not a nationalist, but I grow weary of your passive aggressive attacks on my country. Just saying. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Whoa, don't be so touchy, Laird. The Canadian news media certainly isn't above that sort of thing; read my message again, especially the bit about the candidates who were forced to withdraw from the election because the media went rooting around in their pasts and found stuff that was embarrassing for their respective parties. My point is that that happened up here in an election campaign that lasted 37 days; in one that goes on for two years, there's that much more time to go digging, and as time drags by and there's not really anything new to report, people are forced to dig ever harder for headlines and news stories. And apologies for any passive/aggressive tendencies I've displayed towards America; I didn't realise I was doing that. I've never lived in the States, but I've lived beside it most of my life, in the country that, more than almost any other, is affected by every twitch and cough emanating from America. I pay attention to news and current events coming from south of the border, because like it or not, events in my country and my life are controlled, to a great extent, by what happens south of the 49th. An example: a local lumber mill has had to close down for a time, throwing 200 people out of work, because most of the demand for their lumber came from the U.S. housing market, which has, as we all know, crashed and burned in rather spectacular fashion. I'm sure the mill owners are, as I write, looking for new markets, probably here in Canada or in Asia, but the global credit crisis means that will probably be easier said than done. There's much that's great about our respective countries; there's much that's not so great, too. We used to get along pretty well, but things seemed to change about the time that our then Prime Minister declined the invitation to participate in the war in Iraq, more on the part of Americans than Canadians, it must be said. Sad, really. | ||
| Laird Barron (Laird) Username: Laird Registered: 05-2008 Posted From: 71.212.79.124 |
I was being a bit touchy, Barbara -- I took your statement re: Americans and the media as a blanket indictment of US citizens. Many, many of us over here are idiots. However, many, many of us are equally disheartened and dismayed by current events and policies. I'm going to stifle myself until this bloody election is in the books.... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.151.43 |
"No one knew there weren't weapons of mass destruction, until there weren't weapons of mass destruction. Hindsight is everything." On the contrary, Craig, the arms inspectors, the anti-war movement, most UK journalists and most of Europe in general knew that there were no weapons of maass destruction hidden in Iraq. It wasn't a misundertsanding, it was a manipulative bullshit lie told by those manipulative bullshitting warmongering liars the Republican Party and those manipulative bullshitting warmongering liars outside the USA who supported the annexation of Iraq. We're talking about war crimes and crimes against humanity. The USA and the UK will go paying for those crimes for many decades to come. The rest of the world views the prospect of a McCain presidency with appalled terror. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.17.28.53 |
Luckily for the rest of the world, Joel, as it stands today, the chances for a McCain presidency seem increasingly dim. People were tired of the endless parade of U.N. inspectors, the years and years of them doing their thankless work in Iraq; the years and years of U.S. planes being shot at by Iraqi forces every day for enforcing old war-induced no-fly zones. Something had to change, that kind of existence couldn't go on forever - it couldn't - and I think there are mystical, inexplicable laws, sometimes, that take over and force the hands of leaders. (Sadaam's sons were X-factors alone: no one knew what to expect with them, and maybe fear of an actual Sonny Corleone godfather was too much to risk.) But me, I've always believed the U.S. spearheading the dismantling of Iraq was indirect payback for 9/11 - whatever the government says, it was all about that. Afghanistan was simply too tiny to be the sacrifice; something bigger was needed, and so Iraq was groomed for the chopping block. What's scary is, and I admit this, I'm not exactly so sure that was the wrong thing to do... power must be exercised, when something like the twin towers and the Pentagon are physically attacked... it's simply too enormous, too gigantic, to let stand... no nation c/would allow that... something bigger had to pay; luckily for the U.S., the choice was an easy one.... That, and a country with such a gigantic military, such a vast weapons industrial complex, needs a good war every ten years or so to keep itself limber. Maybe everyone (in that "coalition of nations") got together for a big old let's-stretch-the-legs/pleasure-the-dogs hunting party?... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.17.28.53 |
Hey Barbara: I haven't heard much about how the mortgage crisis is affecting Canada... was your country caught up in that madness as much as ours was?... | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
We seem to have escaped (for now) the worst of the mortgage crisis madness. Sub-prime mortgages are not, I think, available up here, and the banking system is quite different: fewer lenders (well, we've got a tenth the population of the States), more government regulation, and more accountability inasmuch as not just anyone can set up a Savings and Loan or some such institution (It's A Wonderful Life couldn't be set in Canada without some major rewriting). The main fall-out we're seeing is in the lumber industry (fewer housing starts in the States because of the collapsing house market = fewer sales), manufacturing jobs (American firms closing Canadian sites, plus fewer Americans buying because of the the credit crunch), oil (less demand from the States), and tourism (fewer Americans travelling). So most of the economy, in one way or another, really. Like we say up here, America sneezes and Canada catches a cold. Which isn't a complaint or an attack, Laird, just a statement of fact. When two countries are tied so closely together through language and geography, what happens in one affects the other; it's just that America is such a behemoth compared with Canada, that we tend to be the country that suffers more. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.95 |
Laird, you might be heartened by a recent comment I heard from Scottish folk singer Dick Gaughan, talking about the American trade unionist and peace movements (so utterly denied by the US media that, to the rest of the world, they are barely visible): "America is not the land of the free, but it is the home of the brave. There are some very brave people there." | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.235.95 |
Key image of the week: McCain on camera, walking behind Obama, pretending to throw up. A classic racist tactic: referring implicitly to the 'gut instinct' of revulsion while avoiding the use of words that could be quoted, analysed and criticised. Very, very clever bit of media theatre. And utterly despicable. | ||
| Simon Strantzas (Nomis) Username: Nomis Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 99.225.111.224 |
In fairness, Joel, that photo of McCain making faces has nothing at all to do with Obama, but rather just a lucky snapshot taken at unfortunate moment. You can read about it, and see the footage, here at the myth-busting Snopes.com: http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/funnyface.asp Regardless of the politics involved, I don't see this as anything other than something unintentional. If anything, I'd more likely believe the argument the "liberal media" is running with the photo to make McCain look like an ass. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>But me, I've always believed the U.S. spearheading the dismantling of Iraq was indirect payback for 9/11 - whatever the government says, it was all about that. Afghanistan was simply too tiny to be the sacrifice; something bigger was needed, and so Iraq was groomed for the chopping block. What's scary is, and I admit this, I'm not exactly so sure that was the wrong thing to do... power must be exercised, when something like the twin towers and the Pentagon are physically attacked... it's simply too enormous, too gigantic, to let stand... Sorry, but what exactly did Iraq have to do with 9/11? Oh yes, Iraq has some Sunni Muslim residents. Guilt by association. Despite the fact that Saddam was essentially a 'Godless' dictator, and had in 1980 actually invaded Iran in fear of militant Islam spreading to his country. I'm certainly not defending Saddam's brutal dictatorship, but come on. >>>That, and a country with such a gigantic military, such a vast weapons industrial complex, needs a good war every ten years or so to keep itself limber. Maybe everyone (in that "coalition of nations") got together for a big old let's-stretch-the-legs/pleasure-the-dogs hunting party?... Are you serious? The UN did not endorse the war, leaving the US, the UK and Spain and a few others (not the 30 the US claimed) to act independently. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.154 |
Iraq was responsible for 9/11? That's news to me. I remember watching the American invasion of Iraq on CNN. One of the 'embedded' journalists was interviewing some of the soldiers, and when asked how they felt, a group of them tellingly replied that that they were looking forward to getting some "payback for 9/11". The journalist seemed taken aback, and quickly steered the talk to other things, and I've never seen that interview clip repeated to this day. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Craig, here's a table of active troops during the invasion of Iraq: United States: 250,000 invasion—144,000 current (8/08) United Kingdom: 45,000 invasion—4,100 current (9/08) Poland: 194 invasion—2,500 peak—900 current (2/07) Australia: 2,000 invasion—~300 current (07/08) TOTAL INVASION DEPLOYMENT ~297,000 troops Some coalition, huh? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
9/11 did inform Bush's 'war on terrorism' in the sense that it became US policy to pre-empt acts of terrorism. That was why the 'coalition' needed to go through the whole weapons of mass destruction facade in order to justify the invasion. But that was all lies. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.236.227 |
"I think there are mystical, inexplicable laws, sometimes, that take over and force the hands of leaders." Correct me if i'm wrong, but I was always under the impression that there was an old score to be settled between the Bush clan and Iraq. Remember the Gulf war and the Iraqi plan to assassinate George H.W. Bush (President Bush's dad)? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Er, well, I think we ought to avoid simplistic, reductive reasons for the invasion. The truth is probably complex, and may include: 1) guaranteeing the supply of 'certain resources' from the Middle East 2) an attempt to set up a model of democracy in the Middle East that could be held up as a (non-Jewish) example of democratic prosperity (and Iraq, with its non-Islamic regime, would perhaps have been the most likely to 'convert' soonest) 3) preventing the spread of militant Islam (the US has a history of combating the 'domino effect': first communism, now Sharia...?) 4) getting rid of a brutal, unpredictable dictator 5) the fact that the USSR was no longer a major military threat 6) 9/11-driven righteousness and fear 7) a demonstration of 'shock and awe' - a taste of what others can expect if they mess with the best 8) having removed most US forces from Saudi Arabia, Iraq would be an alternative base from which to 'exercise influence' 9) awarding US companies reconstruction contracts... Those are some. Will be more. History should be more accurate (provided it isn't all airbrushed...). | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Simon – if the 'fluke' explanation is accurate I'm greatly relieved. And yes, it was reported in the UK as an apparently deliberate gesture. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Oh, and Barbara: if you want to attack my country, feel free. In fact, I'll be offended if you don't.  | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
I assume you mean verbally, Gary. Barbara's access to the Canadian military response is not the kind of secret we should be airing in this forum. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Maybe all the North American independent publishers can form a coalition and drop a lot of heavy limited-editions on us... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
"You like dinged spines? We'll give you dinged spines..." | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Should the UK government subsidise the purchase of limited-edition weird fiction hardbacks for improverished UK readers? In a word: yes. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yes, it's all part of a reprint process which has been initiated in response to the 'Read-It Crunch'. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Which, for the benefit of non-UK readers, was a tragic incident in which over three hundred frogs were crushed by a meteorite in the Lake District. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
It was tragic. They all croaked. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
>>Albie, you suggested elsewhere that I'm too polite to people. So go fuck yourself. Where on earth did I suggest that?! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
In that debate you and I had. You said something like, "Joel and Proto might give you an easy time..." | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Anyway, he's apologised, so let it be. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
That wasn't about being polite. It was about being a socialist character. A cliche, if you will. Sorry. My leg hurts too. Ow. ow. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
OK. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
I was suggesting that Gary spread his ideas to people who would already agree with him. Being the soft option. I was also suggesting such ideas and ideologies incubate in an early environment of University, where they grow unchallenged. Therefore have little actual structure capable of bearing honest criticism. That's all. Just as most political views grow in the world of satire and not much else. Satire being a distorting medium. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Ow OW. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
OK. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
An explanation is not a plea for sympathy. And being full of right-wing drivel does not make you balanced and objective, it just makes you full of right-wing drivel. Full of ignorant, pernicious shit. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
Albie – for the record, you can fuck right off. No apologies this time. | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
Rumbled; the real reason we're reprinting A Pleasing Terror. Okay, who's tapping our phone? | ||
| Barbara Roden (Nebuly) Username: Nebuly Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 216.232.189.45 |
They're the same thing, Joel. Due to cutbacks, these days the Canadian military response is harsh language. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Gary - by the way, my leg hurts too - I'm speaking less factually, than... artistically? I'm claiming no facts in my conjectures; in fact, facts would probably stand against me. And, again, though I am chagrined at myself, I'm not actually condemning the U.S. for it's incursion into Iraq - I believe countries are extra-moral entities, that must always rest their actions on that crucial decision (as I detailed in another post): them or us. If one doesn't like that, then one should become an official non-citizen of the non-world. "Indirect" means just what you say: no, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I'm speaking... is there a better term for this than "artistically"? I can't think well right now. Anyway, my point is, a hit that big, requires a gigantic response with lots of flash and fireworks. Afghanistan was too small, too rinky-dink; it didn't sate the bloodlust that had been unleashed. Therefore we get the 9 points you raised, which I think are probably spot-on. But one can act on those 9 points, say, or not. I personally believe, we decided to, at that crucial juncture. However, if you prefer, I can scream all this back at you instead, and shrilly. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Here's something else I firmly believe, and I want to emphasize: I have zero facts to support this, except pure artistic conjecture. But, I firmly believe... The entire "terrorist threat" was eradicated from our shores basically by the end of the calendar year 2001. The government used methods that will never come to light, methods that might quite terrify us, to basically excise whatever "cells" or lingering issues that existed within our shores, and many without our shores. To me, there's no way in Hell you can have an incident like 9/11, and then those in power not bringing down the mutha-f*ckin' hammer on it: not in this universe. By the year 2002, we were basically a "terrorist"-free country... the real war had been won... but it became politically expedient to maintain the fear of that nameless threat, those faceless attackers, for many reasons... some good, some bad... governments, again, have their own set of morals.... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Craig, it sounded like you supported the invasion of Iraq on the grounds it was an appropriate response to 9/11, which is surely absurd. Now if you'd said it was appropriate to eliminate Saddam because Fascist totalitarianism was flourishing anew, or if you'd mentioned Kanon Makiya, then I might have given you a fairer hearing. But you didn't. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
>>An explanation is not a plea for sympathy. An explanation is not an excuse to tell me to fuck off. Obviously you didn't have the balls to confront my views TWICE before. What makes you think you've got them now? Billy Bragg fan, are we? Cliche. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Thought about buying a Che Guevara beret, did we? Cliche? Fight your way up to University from a council estate, did we? Cliche. Supported the miner's strike, did we? Cliche. Probably thinks his stories are a "savage endictment." on something or other. Wasn't Rick Mayall's portrayal in THE YOUNG ONES the death of your kind? How's your leg? Stress may inflame it, you know. But then you do have the entire weight of the working classes on your shoulders. Of course, I could be wrong about all this. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
http://www.prettypettythieves.com/followers/jl.htm Lord save us from cliche. It's Morrisey, no less. And pictures of urban decay. Boo hoo. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
OK, guys, let that be an end to it, eh? As you can probably appreciate, as moderator, I'm in a tricky position. So may I request that we all 'take five'? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Hey, he started it. All I did was pose a question. Obviously he's so frightend of me, and my attacking debating style that he panicked and lashed out. Like scared people do. What am I? a bogeyman? Can't I pose a question and not be told to fuck off? Anyone can apologize afterwards. I think I'll go and tell Ramsey to fuck my cock eggs. So long as I say sorry afterwards, it'll be fine. Why won't you stand up to the fact that ALL your arguments are flimsy and that is why fascism generally always rules. It is YOUR fault. Always has been. You're the comedians who slag off the politicians but you won't get into politics yourself. You surround yourself with like minded people to back up your viewpoint and to make it feel like you are doing something. You aint. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I've given you an opportunity to respond, and now I'm asking you to respect the board's usual protocol. Now please do so. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Gary. You said nothing to Joel when he told me to fuck off. Why not tell HIM to fuck off? Go on. Tell him to cock himself off. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
I won't say another word on it, Gary. I blame Ramsey and Leiber. They brought politics and urban blight into horror. Sassanachs. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Where's your sense of fun, Gary? Don't you find it funny? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Truth is, I wanted to give you a chance to respond. Now you have. Now...say something funny. You used to be good at that before you got all boring and political. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
To get back to the point. Having your war record cast in doubt is a little different to having links to a bomber. I would much rather be called a coward and a liar than a friend of a terrorist. What sort a guy who wants to be prez hangs out with a self confessed terrorist? I have nothing against Obama, by the way. I could care less who is president. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Comedy is ultimately distortion. Better to upset people. You can never go too far with that. People will never be upset enough to see the bigger picture. But you can try. Isn't THAT what horror is all about? Ask Ligotti. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Ask Tubby. The gaping mouth in the darkness. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Craig, it sounded like you supported the invasion of Iraq on the grounds it was an appropriate response to 9/11, which is surely absurd. Now if you'd said it was appropriate to eliminate Saddam because Fascist totalitarianism was flourishing anew, or if you'd mentioned Kanon Makiya, then I might have given you a fairer hearing. But you didn't.... You got all that, Gary, from "... though I am chagrined at myself, I'm not actually condemning the U.S. for it's incursion into Iraq..." and (earlier) "What's scary is, and I admit this, I'm not exactly so sure that was the wrong thing to do..."? That's hardly support - tepid support, at best. There are entirely (standard) moral arguments to make on the side of invastion - you've named a few. They are legitimate, and justified. And blanket attacks on them as being amoral for merely being there at are all, are often, wholly unfair.... | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
The middle east has ALWAYS been a problem. The british empire building mirrored that of the Muslim empire. The Turkish Muslim invasion of the middle east was the catalyst. We have been trying to bring peace there for hundreds of years. In varying levels of success and half-assed-ness. We can only travel to parallel universes to see if we did the right thing or not. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
The "right thing" being our supremacy. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
Where is he? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
You do fit my primary criteria for any writer's writing, Albie: Always provoke a response. Why the hell write even a single line, otherwise? Our job as writers is: never bore the reader. That is Sin Number One. Why I try to pepper my stuff here with tits and BJs , just to keep 'em happy. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.216.190 |
"That wasn't about being polite. It was about being a socialist character. A cliche, if you will." Cheers, Albie. Many years and thousands of sincerely written words later, and all I get is to be lumped in with Joel, despite the fact that if you'd paid the slightest attention you'd see that my opinions usually differ sharply from his. Why did I even bother to write this paragraph? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Albie, I think this and related discussions have gone as far as they can on a message board. In order to keep it keen and real and all the other other stuff you're now claiming, I think we should switch it to face-to-face. So email me here gary.fry[at]virgin.net, and suggest a convenient place to meet, as well as a date and time. I'll be there. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Anyone for coffee? Joel - Mate, do you still vote? I was wondering because you're probably the one person on the board who's political views I associate with the most. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.50.191.46 |
Proto- do you think chavs are sorry about the way they act? If the answer is no, then I will take you off the database. Craig-will you ever be bored of despair? Gary-threats of violence will get you nowhere. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
Ha! Fucking hell. Joel's right: there really is no point. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.253.9 |
This is me walking away. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.50.191.46 |
I told you there was no point, Gary. But being human you cannot help yourself. You have to change people's opinons to yours. It's a kind of acceptable fascism. Even as you are reading this your internal nazis are writing your response. What difference is there in meeting someone? So you can force me to act in a more polite way? A more humane fashion? That is a distorting practise. No point? maybe what that actually means is that you are not capable of convincing me. Which is what you most dearly wish to accomplish. There's only one type of person that could convince me of anything: and I would need a time machine to travel forward through time to meet them. The world is infantile. Debate is at an infantile level. But if your standards aren't the same as mine, then so be it. You'll receive infantile arguments to counter yours. No doubt you are so ego bound that you'll construe that as an insult. That's your choice. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
Why won't you meet me face-to-face? After all, you're trying to style yourself as the courageous man of debate: Better to upset people. You can never go too far with that. People will never be upset enough to see the bigger picture. But you can try. Obviously he's so frightend of me, and my attacking debating style that he panicked and lashed out. Like scared people do. Obviously you didn't have the balls to confront my views TWICE before. I was suggesting that Gary spread his ideas to people who would already agree with him. Being the soft option. Why can't I have peace and war? But if that feels too damaging... You're a losing duellist who scuttles to his second and points out the cheapness of my shoes. If you think my debating style is far too ruthless Personally I prefer to see it as a war You are scared of me because you are just not that good at debate. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Enough, Albie. You repeatedly do exactly what you're accusing Gary and others of doing, and you've just done it again. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Ramsey, what am I accusing people of? Having infantile opinions? Fine, but if I have to put up with yours then put up with mine. Don't question them as if it is a forgone conclusion that I am wrong/evil/right wing/stupid. Because that's what happens. I don't expect anything I've just said is able to penetrate you and your censorship machine. And Gary still cannot tell me why he needs to face me in the flesh. He just reiterates a point that doesn't even hit the mark. I have said that debate over the net is fairer and allows for everyone to express themselves without the norms of social hierarchy and domination. Yet you misuse my quote as if I haven't just said this. Your debate etiquette is substandard. Let pure logic be your guide. Not the desire to win a lunchtime debate. Why won't you listen to me? No leather patches on my elbows? No pince nez? | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
Gary wants to defuse my courage by facing me in the flesh. You see? He doesn't care about logic, despite being a robot. He just wants to win. He doesn't care who has the right argument. He just wants HIS to be supreme. Like anyone who has doubts about his argument that he will not investigate. I wonder if he has even spent a second of self analysis. Well, if you won't, I will. That's the byproduct of debate. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
 | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Is it best if everyone just ignores this? I'll take no answer as a yes. | ||
| Albie (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.244.67 |
You say "enough" and then you make another attack at me in the same breath. If you want the debate to end then don't respond. If you have to respond - ask yourselves why. |