| Author | Message | ||
     Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.111.54.56 |
I did this at the vault and they found it amusing there, I hope you will here too. You are emigrating to a desert island, where you will be expected to live out the rest of your life. In your bag you are allowed one single book. Remember this is the only book you're ever going to read for the rest of your life, choose wisely, hee hee. You also have room for a single music cd and a single film on dvd, should you want them. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.236.193 |
Where I'm at now, I'd take the Complete Works of Shakespeare.... That or the Complete Works of Ramsey Campbell. A very close second.  A single CD?... um... where I'm at now, shoot me if you want, but it would be (still futzing with "completes") the Complete Fleetwood Mac - well, complete<1985. Single film?... erg, even harder. Where I'm at now, I'd say... um... uh... probablyyyyy... I guess Murder on The Orient Express. If you're pinning me down, right now, those are my three. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.139 |
Book - Machen's Tales of Horror & the Supernatural CD - The Velvet Underground and Nico DVD - Picnic at Hanging Rock That's today's answer - tomorrow's would probably be completely different! | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Book - A Guide to Practical Shipbuilding CD - How to Build a Ship, audiobook DVD - Shipbuilding for Beginners, the movie | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Alternative list: Book - 1001 Things to do with Coconuts CD - Sounds of the Sea (new age range) DVD - Lord of the Flies | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.156.32.207 |
'Weirdmonger' by DF Lewis | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.43.119.113 |
Book - Incarnate by RC - I would have the time to absorb it all.... CD - Funhouse - The Stooges - I never tire of it. The perfect Rock n'Roll album. DVD - Gawd Knows. gcw | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Would that be the complete Funhouse sessions, GCW? If so, at seven CDs that's cheating! | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.43.119.113 |
30 versions of TV Eye? - too much for even my brain! I have the 'remastered with highlights' 2 CD set - the mutts nuts! gcw | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Book - a fully loaded i-book with an everlasting battery. Finally a way that i-books could be an improvement. If that's cheating then it would have to be complete stories of Ray Bradbury. CD - something very long DVD - Donnie Darko - or possibly the Mist | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
DVD - Donnie Darko - or possibly the Mist :-) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.4.255.85 |
I have a new list today: Book - Swimming to Weberillia CD - "Selected Berserker Battle Cries" DVD - anything even vaguely knife-shaped | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
GF jokes, but it's true, if your going to be deserted there, I think you'd want something survival based. I hate these questions, because how do you fill all the needs? Escape, entertainment, comfort, inspiration??? I'm certainly not going to choose something that would scare the hell out of me, as there'd be nobody to hold me in the dark... in the night... I think I'd have to agree with the complete Shakespeare - as I think would serve on the most levels... | ||
| Adriana (Adriana) Username: Adriana Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.230.239.233 |
As for the CD, something by Neil Young. | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.156.32.207 |
God! I see I chose my own book WEIRDMONGER this morning!? I suppose this is a moment one rememebers as the humiliating tipping-point of one's career or even life. Not the book, but choosing it. It is a book however (as many have vouched) that lasts forever (in the reading of it). | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 93.97.93.216 |
This is an impossible question to answer, and never mind that the odds of my actually ending up alone on a desert island are practically nil. That said ... Book: a 1000+ page, specially produced POD anthology of my favourite short stories. CD: inspired by my book selection, I'd burn a CD of my favourite songs. DVD: I'm going to have to go with my gut instinct on this one (it's the first title that popped into my head): Three Colours Blue. I'll see about sorting the book and CD, and have all three with me at all times from now on, just in case. | ||
| Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.111.32.53 |
Well I think I can safely say that most of you have cheated in one way or another, so I'm not going to pick on anyone in particular. So far Gary F's winning on humourous picks. Mr Des, you also need to pick a cd and a film, if you please. Adriana, you are exempt, as am I, we're far too lovely to be stuck on an island. As for the rest of you, you don't get a choice, you're being abducted, Prisoner style! | ||
| Des (Des) Username: Des Registered: 06-2008 Posted From: 86.156.32.207 |
CD: Parsifal - Wagner DVD: Death In Venice | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.203.119 |
Book: Ray Bradbury, THE OCTOBER COUNTRY CD: Bob Dylan, HIGHWAY 61 REVISITED DVD: RUNNING ON EMPTY | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.203.119 |
POD imagined books don't count. On my desert island there is no POD and no fucking Internet. Be a better life than here. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Today's choices: Book: THE COLLECTED HARLAN ELLISON CD: I can't think of a CD I wouldn't get sick of. DVD: ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.211.103.112 |
Today it will be - book - Night Shift by Stephen King cd - Disintegration by The Cure dvd - Oh Mr Porter | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Steve, if we end up on the same island I'll bring Ask a Policeman and we can swap! Will Hay = comedy god(imho)... | ||
| Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.111.9.47 |
Ahem Mick, that's all very well, but you haven't actually stated your preferences...is it too hard for you dear.... | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Erm, well, yes, it is. But I'm working on it! | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 93.97.93.216 |
Ok, I admit it, I was being a bit cheeky with my POD book choice. And with my CD selection, probably, but I'll let that one stand ... Though can't I forego the CD and DVD and take three books instead? One novel, one collection and one anthology? Pretty please? | ||
| Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.111.9.47 |
Absolutely not Alan. Oh. Oh all right then, seeing as you asked so nicely, I can't really say no. You're the thin edge of the wedge though, now everybody will want preferrential treatment! | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 93.97.93.216 |
Quickly, before Coral changes her mind: Anthology - Alberto Manguel's White Fire Collection - Ray Bradbury's Bradbury Stories Novel - John Crowley's Little Big | ||
| Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.111.9.47 |
Well, I approve of the Ray Bradbury ;) | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 67.116.103.241 |
Zed - Once Upon A Time In America?!? Great movie, but hardly a movie that can be rewatched for god knows how many times. It has too many deathly-slow spots, and is often utterly depressing. Des - I've never seen Death in Venice: good? HUW - Picnic at Hanging Rock, all alone on a desert island... that would creep me out a bit too much.... | ||
| Tom_alaerts (Tom_alaerts) Username: Tom_alaerts Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.244.140.221 |
Book: Lolita or "War & Peace" as I will have the time to read it dvd: perhaps the "Neon Genesis Evangelion" box set (only half cheating: in divx format the full series fits on one disc); or the "Twin Peaks" box set, or the Godfather trilogy set. If it HAS to be one movie only, then "Laputa: the castle in the skies" or "Eyes wide shut". music: a best of Bob Dylan | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
It has too many deathly-slow spots, and is often utterly depressing. And these are just the best bits. Craig, I'm often flabbergasted by your taste in films. ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA is one of the few genuinely flawless films I've ever seen (TAXI DRIVER is another). I could sit and watch it forever. And the soundrtrack: Holy Jesus, what a soundtrack. We played "Cockeye's Theme" at our wedding. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.8.255 |
I liked and appreciated OUATIA, Zed... but even I have to admit to myself, it's intolerably slow, almost unforgivably. It came on TV not too long ago, and I wanted to see how far I could get... I'd already seen it, of course: I'd remembered it being this slow and ponderous thing, and wanted to see if I were wrong in that... no, it was even worse than I'd remembered.... It's not the film itself, however, I'm attacking, really; it's that you'd choose it to take to a desert island as your only film. Maybe you want to be constantly spurred to get off that damn island. ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST is better, imho. Better in the genre: THE GODFATHER/THE GODFATHER II. | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.236.227 |
Strong contenders (part one  ): Selected letters III, by Lovecraft The House on the Borderland, by Hodgson Once Upon a Time in the West 2001 a Space Odyssey Death in Venice Selling England by the Pound / Genesis Softs / Soft Machine Lizard / King Crimson Imaginary Day / Pat Metheny | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.236.227 |
Craig: hadn't seen your comment on Once Upon a Time in the West. Glad you like the movie, I think it's still underrated. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
All of Leone's films best-known are masterpieces, IMHO. ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA is the greatest gangster film ever made - and one of the finest pieces of cinema ever produced. I just don't see what's so "slow and ponderous" about it. Unless you mean there's no jump cuts and MTV style edits. It's a beautfiful, elegiac work of art. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
It's not as good as Cannonball Run. | ||
| Steve Bacon (Stevebacon) Username: Stevebacon Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 90.211.103.112 |
Mick, it was a toss up between Oh Mr Porter and Ask A Policeman, so we'll definitely swap (or watch them both together). I'm also partial to a bit of Good Morning Boys. I agree with the Will Hay as Comedy God comment. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Good man! I have all his films on DVD (including rather ropey copies of THE GOOSE STEPS OUT, DANDY DICK and THOSE WERE THE DAYS)! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.17.28.53 |
ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA is the greatest gangster film ever made... Really? I said, I like it if I don't love it, but... the greatest, Zed? THE greatest? The GREATEST?... It is slow and ponderous mostly with the kids, I thought, tediously so. Sentimental too, somewhat. Stop me, or I'm going to start attacking this film, and I LIKE this film. You really really think it's the greatest gangster film ever, though?... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Yes, I do. By a long shot. The bits with the kids is particularly brilliant. One of my favourite scenes in all cinema is the bit with the cream cake on the stairs... | ||
| Hubert (Hubert) Username: Hubert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.22.236.227 |
"the bit with the cream cake on the stairs..." I think everyone remembers and loves that scene. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.154 |
I'm not sure if it's the best, but I agree with Zed that it's a brilliant film. How about listing some other good/great gangster films? The Untouchables, The Godfather (1-3), Scarface, Miller's Crossing, Donnie Brasco, Goodfellas, Sonatine, The Yakuza, Bullet in the Head, A Better Tomorrow... There must be some good older gangster films that I'm missing - anyone? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Bonnie and Clyde? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Did I get a film question right? Can I join the club now? Am I qualified? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Not really a gangster film, mate. How about a few more: The Public Enemy The Roaring Twenties Angels with Dirty faces The Road to Perdition Scarface (original) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
[shoots self] | ||
| Lincoln Brown (Lincoln_brown) Username: Lincoln_brown Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 121.214.140.185 |
Book - 'Alone With The Horrors' DVD - 'Inland Empire' (finally, I'd have some spare time to watch it!!) CD - Can't separate: 'Tool - 10,000 Days', 'Radiohead - OK Computer' | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
Book - Phil Hardy's Aurum Horror Film Encyclopedia DVD - Blazing Saddles CD - Rambo: First Blood Part II | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
My trio... Book: Remembrance of Things Past DVD: La Regle du Jeu CD: Beethoven's Opus 130 with original final movement | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.154 |
Just thought of a couple more, Zed: Carlito's Way Little Caeser GF: keep trying - one day you'll make it to the 'film know-it-alls' club! ;-) | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Oh, just put me out of my misery, Huw. Tell me I ain't got the stuff required. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Huw - Carlito's Way is brilliant. Perhaps even acino's finest hour... | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
At least I pull the full quota of letters in an actor's name, though. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
P | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Obviously OUATIA doesn't fill Craigs template for a gangster movie. I've figured this one out now. What Craig calls templates is basically just a matter of personal taste. My template that i expect to see for a Steven king apocalyptic monster movie includes the mad christian woman (a stock SK character from carries mother onwards), the fools errand to show some cool monsters while the poor sod they're trying to save dies offscreen, all helping to built a sense of doom to give a shattering ending to the film. the Mist ticks all those boxes for me but obviously Craig wants to tick different boxes to me. All this talk of templates is quite meaningless. It's just down to taste. BTW I've read through all your original comments about the Mist and your whole template argument started with Imagine you find an unlabeled video/dvd and watch the film with no prior knowledge. In that example, my choices of the Birds and Dusk till dawn perfectly fill the rules you say should never be broken. only a fool would say that those are horrifically bad films because they start on one template and move on without warning to something else. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
On Desert Island Discs Ardal O'Hanlon asked for a giant inflatable book and another called "How to Make Oars out of Sand". | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
CARLITO'S WAY is indeed a great little film, and one that nearly slipped under the radar for me on its release. It's also the film that made me realise that Sean Penn is a superb actor. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Weber, Weber, Weber... you are extracting many heavy sighs from me... here's one now... *sigh*.... I'm forced to be a broken record on this. First, you have to admit - have you yet? - that there are such things as "bad movies." Then, you have to analyze what makes a bad movie, bad. Let's say you just concentrate on actors, acting: well then, you imply a scale, a range, of acting acumen: good on one end, bad on the other. That same scale implies a sort of Platonic ideal, to which actors come close to, and thereby achieve that which can be classified as "good." Go to the other end, you get "bad." (The presence of irony in a given artistic work somewhat screws this scale up, but we won't go there for the moment.) That scale, is, a kind of template. It's a very simple one, though: it rates the worth of an actor's ability. There are some templates that measure how close a work gets to a given story structure: if it hits all the right sweet spots, it's closer to "good" than to "bad." Viewing THE WIZARD OF OZ as a western, means it would fail utterly on that template. You're right, perhaps: if one was to watch THE BIRDS or DUSK 'TIL DAWN as a blank video, one would indeed feel what I call "anxiety" until the correct mental "template" could be pasted over it. I've maintained that audiences are tense until they know what they are getting - audiences want to not be surprised, and I'm speaking unconsciously: they want comfortable, safe, clear, concise. But I believe extra-movie elements are fair game in critiquing a film - that's a radical notion, but I stand by it. Therefore, one knows what one's getting in those films... the posters, the ads, the trailers, the source material, etc. told us all this well in advance... and I don't remember being "templately" disappointed in either film.... What's so difficult to understand here? | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
And I'm not saying OUATIA is a bad film, or that Zed can't claim it as his favorite gangster film - like Zed, I'm often flabbergasted at others' tastes in films. But I like to be flabbergasted - if everyone liked what I liked, well... that'd be boring.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Nothing's difficult to understand. You're just talking shit. What you talk about as templates this and that and these apparently immutable laws of filmmaking can be reduced down to a matter of taste of the point of view of the individual watching the film. I've no more to say. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Getting there... CD - either (sorry!) OK Computer or Paul Simon's There Goes Rhymin' Simon Book - The Weirdstone of Brisingamen by Alan Garner DVD - Hmmm - probably gotta be one of the discs from the Laurel & Hardy 21 disc set, but I can't make my mind up which, or Oh Mr Porter! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Let's see... if a kid of 8 came up to you, Weber, and said BEVERLY HILLS CHIHUAHAU was hands-down the best film ever made - after all, it contained all the elements this little snot-tot expects from a good movie... is that a matter of taste? Purely a point of view? Your disagreeing is of no consequence - BHC really does stand beside CASABLANCA, it's just degrees of sensation that separate them?... it's all just "the point of view of the individual watching the film"...? From what you're giving me, I so must conclude. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yeah, I must admit I've never bought into that "taste" argument. It has this precise problem. But it's devilishly difficult getting around it. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
No it's not Gary - hence my TEMPLATE THEORY OF ART!!!  | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Each of us has a different template. Some films you champion - Transformers - are thought by most people with an IQ greater than their shoe size to be dumb even by the standards of dumb hollywood blockbusters. Last person who championed Transformers to me was 8 years old BTW. Films that you loathe and claim to be empirically bad - Donnie and the Mist for example - are championed by many on this board. Lots of people here loathe the Saw films but myself and Lord P love them. There is no such thing as an objectively bad film. Even Ed Wood has an audience. There are films that the majority of the people hate, Freddy got fingered, Not another Teen Movie, for example, but even these have their fans. The people who like these films would hate the films we love. Unfortunately, much as I would love my opinion to be the definitive guide to what is good and bad in film making, there are no immutable laws of aesthetics. We all have our different personal templates - (I personally love a film that blows my templates apart) - and every film has an appreciative audience somewhere. Those audiences may be exceedingly small but they're there. If you can find me an example of a film that is loathed by the entire planet, then I will accept your argument. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Cannonball Run? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I liked it. dumb fun. I've not seen it since I was 12 but i liked it then. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Weber, stop extracting sighs from me... *sigh*.... I admit DD is a matter of taste, more than anything: the cliches and sickly-sweetness of that film enrage me. I'm forced to throw up at the thought of it. Maybe here is where taste becomes a relevant issue, over qualitative measurability? Many films I like, I will wholly admit, are lousy, too. Good and bad, like and dislike... Gary is right, of course, they're confusing.... THE MIST is the best example of my template theory: it does not work, as a feature film, imho; it does work, as a TV movie of the week. This is because there are two different templates which one can paste over it. I am angry the people that made it, made it seem it was always intended as a feature - I insist upon believing it was an aborted pilot or miniseries or something, to be more kind to it. Again, my WIZARD OF OZ as western example above.... I don't champion TRANSFORMERS: I said, that it's first half was tense and even horrific; I said when the second half kicked in, and the cute personalities arrived, it mostly fell apart: if it had only lived up to the first half's potential.... But then "Low Expectation Syndrome" (LES) is always a factor in the viewing of many movies... as is its sister HES.... | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
But The Mist ticks every box for me, It fits all my templates to put it in your parlance. It's a matter of taste. Your template thingy falls down in shards at your feet and you collapse in a fit of sighing tears... | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.3.88 |
Weber, a film can be bad, and one still like it... this one is bad, trust me. I wouldn't sell you wrong. It sucks. It's like a stinky turd under my shoe. As a feature film, it is, it's stinky, and turd-like. You like it because you don't even realize you're fitting another template over it, the TV-movie template. And don't deny it. Times infinity. I win this argument. Nyah-nyah-nyah! [flees switfly away so he can't hear counter-arguments] | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
You knnow you can't say what "template" I was putting on the film. I saw it in the cinema and if ther was a template it was Steven King movie - which is a dicey template at best as some of the films based on his work are apalling. Of course there are films that are "bad", but to someone out there, they're still good films. I remember thinking that Cannonball run was actually a really good movie when I was twelve. That makes it a good film for twelve year olds. I know it's a pile of crap for people with more critical faculties but to me back then it was a GOOD film. If a film is bad it's because it's badly acted/written/directed - not because of some kind of template that needs fitting over it.If a film bursts out of these predefined templates it's likely to be far more satisfying for me. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
Thank God I don't believe in templates. I'm for instinct. At the risk of being boring (and certainly of boring myself by repetition) both Jenny and I found The Mist genuinely frightening and very powerful, and no amount of banging on about audience expectations is going to change the instinctive response we had. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
Er, Weber, I was just joshing with the Cannonball Run line. It's what I always say. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.77.198 |
But there really is a problem with relativism. If everyone is just down to taste, then Chris Colombus is as worthy as Hitchcock. Postmodern nonsense. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
Gary, I think you said before that the only objective way of measuring quality is longevity. With some exceptions (I think Moby Dick and The Great Gatsby are vastly over-rated, for instance) I think you're right. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
But of course, an objective measurement of quality isn't always the point. If something makes you laugh or feel awe, it requires no further justification, even though endless man-years are wasted on the internet demanding just that. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
>>If something makes you laugh or feel awe, it requires no further justification<< Well said, Proto. At base level, if a film works for you personally it just works. End of story. | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.253.174.81 |
Just as long as GF doesn't start dressing up as Captain Chaos | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
"But there really is a problem with relativism. If everyone is just down to taste, then Chris Colombus is as worthy as Hitchcock. Postmodern nonsense." But in someone's mind somewhere, Chris Columbus or Michael Bay are more worthy than Hitchcock. It doesn't mean it's true. It just means that their opinions are flawed and hopefully education (or in the case of Michael Bay) puberty can cure the problem. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
got the bracket in the wrong place there. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
>>>But in someone's mind somewhere, Chris Columbus or Michael Bay are more worthy than Hitchcock. Absolutely. >>>It doesn't mean it's true. Absolutely. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 204.104.55.243 |
The one book DVD CD challenge on a deserted island: Cooking with Pooh: (ok it is a Winnie the Pooh book) CD: Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy DVD: I'll go for that shipbuilding DVD infomercial Gary mentioned. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Those first two choices demonstrate a rather scatalogical bent...  | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 204.104.55.243 |
Zed really enjoyed Rain Dogs btw! | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.187.244 |
Imagine being stranded on a desert island populated entirely by Big Brother type people. It would be like a chav version of Lord of the Flies. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Thanks, Karim! | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.243.67 |
"It doesn't mean it's true. It just means that their opinions are flawed..." This is saying that there's an objective standard of good art. Apart from the longevity, I don't believe such a thing exists in anything other than science (and even science is wobbly on the subject of objectivity). | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 129.11.76.230 |
All works of 'entertainment' aren't judged according to a single criterion, are they? Take film, for instance. A comedy is judged against other comedies. An action-thriller is judged against other action thrillers. Etc. So we have lots of sub-genres with their own standards of worthiness. Hence film reviews in which something ambitious and 'artful' might score 4 out of 5, while a daft yet enjoyable bit of fluff might score the same: they're both judged according to context. This always intrigues me when I skim through my film review guide and see a 'weighty' film like FULL METAL JACKET get 3 stars out of 4, and a 'lightweight' film like THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY get the same. Different criterias of evaluation. No? | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
"It doesn't mean it's true. It just means that their opinions are flawed..." in our opinions. Still nothing to do with templates though. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.9.157 |
At the risk of being boring (and certainly of boring myself by repetition) both Jenny and I found The Mist genuinely frightening and very powerful, and no amount of banging on about audience expectations is going to change the instinctive response we had.... Fair enough. But as I sat down to THE MIST, a movie which contained all the elements that promised me 2 hours of pure enjoyment, I found myself disliking it at every turn - one could say, against my will. When I get such a visceral reaction of dislike to something I should like, I wonder why... and I find reasons.... I think some reasons are beyond question, flaws - but flaws can be overlooked. I overlook flaws in many movies. Why did I not overlook them here? Maybe this is where we get into pyschology. Some are personal taste - I rather dislike CGI unless it's done very well, and I felt the CGI in THE MIST was substandard: I kept getting hurtled out of the movie. There's that. Thank God I don't believe in templates. I'm for instinct. I'm really going to be forced to write a book about this someday - you'll all be able to find every single copy in the remainder bins - but: my template theory of art is based on instinct: the reaction of the viewer, given the instinctual "template" (for lack of a better term) the mind conjures up, given whatever data is available to the mind from the given piece of art, in the mind's desperate bid to avoid anxiety on experiencing that same piece of art for the very first time; and as a tool of criticism, in judging that artwork's worth, subsequently. But now I'm boring, so I'll shut up. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.9.157 |
Except for one last thing: All works of 'entertainment' aren't judged according to a single criterion, are they? Take film, for instance. A comedy is judged against other comedies. An action-thriller is judged against other action thrillers. Etc.... Gary states almost exactly what I'm going after; what I'm not theorizing as new, but trying to understand as always being there. Until we can quantify the given work of art, we are anxious. Once we quantify it - that implies that we are using other measuring rods against, which to measure the given work - we can value-assess it. A template, as I had originally proposed, was: the way a given work of art utilizes/sticks to/includes/handles/etc. its conventions, as one rod of measurement. A Ramsey Campbell horror novel with no scares of any kind, is either one of two things: a lousy horror novel, or not a horror novel at all. I guess today I'm a politician: I'm going back on my word, not shutting up at all.... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.251.60 |
"Different criterias of evaluation. No?" Sure, especially in horror. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"I'm really going to be forced to write a book about this someday - you'll all be able to find every single copy in the remainder bins - but: my template theory of art is based on instinct: the reaction of the viewer, given the instinctual "template" (for lack of a better term) the mind conjures up, given whatever data is available to the mind from the given piece of art, in the mind's desperate bid to avoid anxiety on experiencing that same piece of art for the very first time; and as a tool of criticism, in judging that artwork's worth, subsequently. But now I'm boring..." Not at all! But what about those of us who like to feel anxiety as part of the first experience of a new work? | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.177.20 |
I feel that Craig's whole concept is based on a sense of comfort and security, in the sense of getting what you expect and feel comfortable with when you watch a certain kind of film. For me, and many others, I suspect, it's just not that simple; you can't set up a 'template' that works for everyone, because what people want from art differs from person to person. It's not a universal rule of film (or any other artform). You can't say that a film is bad or an outright failure because it falls short of the requirements that you yourself set up for it. The most you can say is that it didn't work for you. When I watch a film, I don't necessarily want to be comforted by a movie that ticks all the boxes of some theoretical rulebook. I want to be moved, excited, or challenged in some way, and if a film subverts my preconceptions, I'm usually more, rather than less, impressed with it. | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 93.97.93.216 |
"When I watch a film, I don't necessarily want to be comforted by a movie that ticks all the boxes of some theoretical rulebook. I want to be moved, excited, or challenged in some way, and if a film subverts my preconceptions, I'm usually more, rather than less, impressed with it." I agree. Generally speaking, there's nothing wrong with films - and for that matter books - that, shall we say, stick to the rules, be they the rules or conventions of a given genre, or a more personal set of guidelines that to a large extent dictate a person's response to this book or that movie (this one ticked all the boxes, that one skipped over a few and was therefore unsatisfactory). But it's those books and films that take you to unexpected places, and do so in surprising and interesting ways, that often get under my skin the way 'comfort food' books or films simply don't. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
May I change my CD choice to p j harvey's "tales from the city, tales from the sea" please, Coral? And woosh, back on topic! | ||
| John Llewellyn Probert (John_l_probert) Username: John_l_probert Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 90.199.0.229 |
Yes - I want to change my CD to 'Help!' by Brian Blessed. | ||
| Mick Curtis (Mick) Username: Mick Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.159.158.168 |
Good lord! | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.16.77.54 |
Not at all! But what about those of us who like to feel anxiety as part of the first experience of a new work? There are different ways of looking at this, Ramsey. I don't know if you ever get the hankering or not to just, say, watch a rom-com: throw on some Hugh Grant comedy, and go with it. The desire for artistic "anxiety" would be extremely low: we would here usually, and completely, desire quantifiable, structured, rom-com conventions, all neat in a row. That would be different from what we'd expect, throwing in a David Lynch film: Lynch's films defy most genres/categories, but we (if we've seen enough of his films) indeed have at least a vague mental "template" of a Lynch film: there are certain elements we expect from his films, all of them conjured up instinctually (stimulus/responsively?) when the very name "David Lynch" is brought up. The same with "Ramsey Campbell." I think, within these inescapable/instinctual mental "templates," comes of course the desire to be challenged, surprised, and even shocked - but these run counter-to our desires for that which is familiar. They forge together, a delicious tension: because when I say "anxiety," I don't mean, by the way, wholly painful, horrendous, terrifying, or revolting experiences. We feel anxiety going up and down on a roller-coaster, but many of us seek out that anxiety... as long as that anxiety's cessation, if not sublimation, is part of the experience. The same, but different, the classic Hollywood formula. The joy of the recent SAW films: the same, but different. LAST YEAR IN MARIENBAD produced extreme anxiety in myself, watching it for the first time: I knew almost nothing about it, and didn't know what to expect going in. As the film progressed, I found myself incapable of being able to quantify anything I was seeing... it kept getting less and less definable... it was a strangely delicious experience, but I was overwhelmed and anxious. After a time (analyzing this now on the fly), I think I realized (subconsciously) I simply would not be able to quantify this viewing experience... similarly non-quantifiable movies probably were referenced, deep in my mind, to comfort me... somehow, somewhere, I was able to relax somewhat... but never quite relax completely. When it was finally over, it was indeed all like riding a roller-coaster: I had survived, and it was exhilarating. And now I had a new "template" in my mind, against which other, similar film experiences would be compared.... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Craig - I get you entirely, and yes, feel these 'speed bumps' when I see certain films, and just can't explain them. The Mist I generally liked but yes, it had these bumps, stopped it being great. It's like this Straub book I'm reading; I've put it aside as an angel just appeared in it, and the protagonist was not much affected by it. I cannot get back into it for that single reason. It's like a cog; take away a tooth from a cog and the whole mechanism grinds to a halt. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.9.81 |
That's actually a better way of putting it, Tony. Taking THE MIST again, those cogs kept flying off as I was watching it... and it was getting impossible to "stay in the moment," to maintain the fantasy.... You bring up another wrinkle to the whole extended theory, which is similar to dreaming: the body must be serenly unconscious, but if external pressures mount, we are flung away from the dream, back to reality. Watching THE MIST for me, then, was much like a bout of insomnia. I'll have to ponder this more... there's something to the whole notion of the inabilty to achieve these certain kinds of artistic "hypnotic states".... | ||
| Danzinger (Albie) Username: Albie Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.195.236.131 |
"It was only once I had opened the dirty window that I could see that the pale shape had begun to undo its trousers." | ||
| Coral (Coral) Username: Coral Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 91.108.126.30 |
Your book choice is so good Mick that I will definitely allow the change of CD, but do try not to make a habit of it ;) |