| Author | Message | ||
     Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
No one's started a thread on this yet??? Dr Who in case you're wondering That was a great great episode yesterday. I don't care what anyone else thinks. Funny, exciting, more explanations for the questions left over from the first half of the season, in fact from the first appearance of River Song... Straightforward narrative, none of the leaping about which seems to annoy people on here so much in episodes like the mid-season finale 8 weeks ago. If the rest is this good then we've really got something to look forward to. Next week's looks to be a scary one (hopefully Mark Gatiss will have picked up the ball he dropped with his Dalek episode). | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
"I don't care what anyone else thinks." Good. I thought it was balls. Sexualised sadism is now family entertainment. Terrorising people at gunpoint into taking their clothes off is okay though, because they were in the Nazi party. I was rooting for Hitler. That's how obnoxious these characters have become. I could say that Moffat has lost the plot. I wish he would. And the characters. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Why do you still watch it? Apart from the Vincent episode I can't remember yuo claiming to like a single episode in the last few years. If I hated something as much as you seem to hate Who, I'd just not bother with it... | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 92.40.254.169 |
I kinda enjoyed it. But other folk I know didn't have a clue what was going on. I do think the Moff is stranded somewhere between his own cleverness, wanting to make an adult show, and trying to make it for kids. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
I'm not having a go or anything, I'm genuinely interested in why you put yourself through the apparent torture every week | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
That was to Proto. i think Moffatt is just trying to make a programme that will appeal to the whole family. There's too many family shows/films that are only designed for the younger sections. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
No, I didn't like the Van Gogh one. I may, in fact, give it up. I honestly have a hard time thinking of characters I'd like to spend less time with. Maybe everyone in Carla Lane's BREAD? Perhaps if Jedward were my dentist(s)? If Piers Morgan was my masseuse? See how hard I have to try? Yeah, I'd better give it a skip. There. They've driven a long-term fan away with the power of smug. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
Sadism is becoming normal, though. It's a become a substitute for maturity writing. It gives the impression of dealing with difficult topics when it's just glamorising and normalising psychopathy. 24 did it, Torchwood started doing it (crushing a woman in a car for no particular reason), now it's become family entertainment. Ah, that gleeful murderer and sex pest River Song. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.197.106 |
"mature writing." | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 99.126.164.88 |
I was rooting for Hitler. He appreciates that:  | ||
| Matthew Fryer (Matthew_fryer) Username: Matthew_fryer Registered: 08-2009 Posted From: 90.195.182.194 |
I thought it was going to be a convoluted historical episode, but was pleasantly surprised. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Did anyone else notice that the numberplate on Amy and Rory's car was in mirror writing? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Is Hitler still in that cupboard? The writers kind of forgot about him, didn't they? And how come that "life-long best friend" Mels has never been mentioned before? Terrible stuff. Alex Kingston (along with the occasional funny line) is the only reason I keep watching the show: she's bloody lovely. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
I don't think they forgot about Hitler - they were just being brilliantly disrespectful! There was no need to mention Mels before - she just didn't come up. We didn't see who employed Amy as a kissogram either, or hardly anyone else from their lives in Leadworth. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
Am I hallucinating?! Has 'Doctor Who' started again and I didn't hear a thing about it!!  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Er, considering that it was possibly the major plot point of the series, I thought it was clumsy (and lazy) as hell to suddeny produce this vital character out of a hat. If I did that in a book, I'd get savaged by critics. It's really terrible stuff - Moffat has taken the excesses of Russell T. Davies and raised them through the roof. It makes for strangely compelling viewing, though, watching something being made up on the hoof in this way. | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I'm stunned. There was no buzz about this restart at all, that I was aware of, and now I've missed the first episode. Weird... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I only knew it was back on because the missus recorded it. You didn't miss much. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Too many clues being dropped for what happens next for it to be as off the hoof as you claim. You watch this reverse writing thing become a clue to a major plotline later on. he's had the whole river song thing worked out since he introduced her in Silence in the Library - where she was wearing an old fashioned astronaut costume if I recall correctly... It's no coincidence that the next woman in the Doc's life was also named after a body of water. (River then Pond). | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
There was no buzz about this restart at all, that I was aware of, and now I've missed the first episode. Weird... Trailers for the last 5 weeks on the beeb - facebook feeds, front cover of last week's RT. Iplayer it Stevie - or look out for the BBC3 repeat- it's great fun | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
But Mels wasn't produced out of a hat - we've seen her as a baby, as a child, and at the moment of her death. Now we've seen the bit inbetween. It's a surprise that she was friends with Amy and Rory while growing up, but it's meant to be. Fair enough if you didn't like it, or if you don't think the effect worked, but it wasn't lazy writing - it was a deliberate bit of tricksiness. You're wondering how the story will end? Surprise - it already did! | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Spoiler alert - the previous posts in this thread contain major spoilers for Last Saturday's episode (which were great) | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
Dickens produced new major characters at the drop of a hat on a regular basis. Worst coincidence in literary history has to be Brownlow being Oliver's Grandad. That's lazy writing just to get a happy ending. Moffatt has this whole thing under control. There are too many incidental details which become massively important later on for there not to be a lot of planning in this. Like I say, watch out for the mirror writing. It has to be there for a reason - what that is though I haven't the foggiest yet. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
But Mels wasn't produced out of a hat - we've seen her as a baby, as a child, and at the moment of her death. Eh? She'd never been mentioned before that episode. To me, that's pulling a character out of a hat. Sorry, but that's lazy (or desperate)writing not deliberate tricksiness. Weber - it doesn't feel that he has it under control to me. It feels like he's freewheeling the world's most expensive bicycle downhill. It's fun to watch because it's so bad - and for Kingston, who's terrific, as always. Anyway, I give up. It's pointless debating this with Who fans - they rarely see any wrong in the show. It's like some weird form of brainwashing. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Stevie - don't worry, I missed it too. I knew it was on, having seen the trailers, but I've just had the long weekend from hell (mostly due to a poorly pussycat) and didn't get around to watching it. Catch it on iPlayer - that's what I'm going to do. Re the trailers, that ventriloquist's dummy - is that the Gatiss episode mentioned above? Gatiss does like paying homage to the great old horror films and when I saw that I thought, "Dead of Night". I probably should avoid this thread until I've seen the first episode, but I guess it won't make a lot of difference ... | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
She's been in loads of episodes - we saw her as a baby in A Good Man Goes to War, as a little girl in the Impossible Astronaut, as a grown-up in Silence in the Library; we saw her regenerate in The Day of the Moon. We knew that she got from being a little girl to being a grown-up at some point; revealing that she did that with Rory and Amy isn't lazy, it's surprising. Lazy means not taking enough care over something, not taking a surprising narrative leap. It's not as if there were dozens of episodes showing Amy and Rory pottering around Leadworth as kids and teenagers, to which we could point and say, well, where's Mels? Showing us that they were friends with Mels doesn't clash with anything that we saw before; it's just a part of their story that was held back until now. It might have been nice if there had been a short scene to establish Mels in The Eleventh Hour, but the absence of one (I assume - I haven't gone back to check!) doesn't invalidate this story. You don't have foreshadow everything. The gun doesn't always have to be on the mantle. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I couldn't disagree more, Stephen. The episode suggested she'd been a major part of their adult lives - the phrase "you did raise me" was even spoken by River Song. Someone that important to them should have at least been mentioned before. I actually found it laughable. It's entertaining, though, in the same way as those really bad horror movies I adore.  | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
I loved the line about the Doctor dancing with everyone at the wedding - the Women were nice, the men were a bit shy... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Some of the dialogue saves it from being really crap, IMHO. "I shall be wearing lots of jodhpurs!" was my favourite. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Yes, "You did raise me", in the sense that they were around her as they were growing up, meeting her at the headmaster's office, bailing her out of jail. They grew up with her and looked after her, so much as friends are able. It all makes perfect sense,* and brings the story threads together in a way that was utterly surprising. We expected Amy and Rory to be reunited with the little girl and settle down at the end of the series to bring her up, but no - they've already done it! On to new adventures! Maybe it's that I'm more of an sf fan than a horror one; this is the kind of time travel twist I enjoy and appreciate. ____ *Well, apart from how a toddler travelled from New York to Leadworth! Maybe there's another regeneration in between. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
I don't have a problem with the twist, just the way it was executed. i.e. poorly. Let's shoehorn in a new character, that'll work! Sorry, but it didn't; not for me, anyway. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
Well, by Doctor Who's usually stellar standards it got quite a low audience appreciation figure, so it's possible other viewers agreed with you. And they're all wrong too.  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.156.210.82 |
Blinkered Whovian.  | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.234.200 |
Where does one obtain audience appreciation figures? I'm interested to know how out of step I am. I hope it's lots. | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
It is - it's regularly received excellent audience appreciation figures since it returned in 2005. Most people who watch it love it, so far as the AIs can be relied on. For example series four hit the nineties with The Stolen Earth and Journey's End, which is astonishing for a programme that also had such high ratings. It's much easier for a programme with a niche audience to get a high AI, because generally only the people who love it tune in at all. For example, the AIs for series four are here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Who_(series_4) Google Doctor Who AIs to find others - they're discussed pretty widely, because Doctor Who fans can be a bit paranoid about whether the programme is out of favour at the BBC. This episode got 85, which is the average for BBC drama, but on the low end for Doctor Who. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.234.200 |
The viewing figures seem to have have dropped, though, since David Tennant. I assume that those who didn't enjoy it and would lower the audience appreciation rating don't register their displeasure, they simply stop watching, as I've been encouraged to do everytime I say it wasn't very good. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
>>.. because Doctor Who fans can be a bit paranoid about whether the programme is out of favour at the BBC<< Who can blame them, after what the Beeb did to us in the 80s?  | ||
| Stevie Walsh (Stephenw) Username: Stephenw Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 194.32.31.1 |
I wouldn't miss it, Weber. As flawed as this series has been I'm still a die-hard 'Doctor Who' fan and always will be. I'm genuinely annoyed I missed it on Sat! When is the BBC3 repeat? | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Stevie - try iPlayer, as I said above. That's what I'm going to do. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 194.66.23.11 |
It's repeated on Friday as far as I can see. If you want to see it before that - i player | ||
| Stephen Theaker (Stephen_theaker) Username: Stephen_theaker Registered: 12-2009 Posted From: 94.169.3.199 |
The ratings haven't gone down much at all, really. They seem to remain steady at about 7-8 million, year in year out, with a bit of a bump up for David Tennant's last series thanks to Catherine Tate and a dalek invasion... The overnights have got lower, but the consolidated figures usually even it out, and the iPlayer isn't even taken into account in the ratings. It'll have to be soon, given that it's now built into a lot of televisions. I was asked to do a RAJAR ratings survey one time, and returned it completely empty, despite listening to NPR and Radio 6 all week long, because they didn't measure internet and time-shifted radio... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.201.184 |
"they didn't measure internet and time-shifted radio..." That's craziness. | ||
| Seanmcd (Seanmcd) Username: Seanmcd Registered: 03-2009 Posted From: 193.113.48.17 |
Shouldn't Hitler's sidearm have been a Luger? He pulled out a revolver! | ||
| Simon Bestwick (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.209.217 |
A Luger, or a Walther P-38, which was standard issue to the Wehrmacht at that time. On the other hand, he committed suicide with a 7.65mm Walther PPK, as used by James Bond, so... Ahem. I'll get my (long, black) coat (and shotgun.) | ||
| Skip (Wolfnoma) Username: Wolfnoma Registered: 07-2010 Posted From: 70.160.12.142 |
I was hoping someone would at least have punched Hitler. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 109.79.37.145 |
Ah, leave the little guy alone! He's doing his best, isn't he? Bullies. | ||
| Weber (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.241.163 |
Rory did punch him... | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.102 |
Yes, in a completely unprovoked attack. Poor Mr. H. | ||
| Carolinec (Carolinec) Username: Carolinec Registered: 06-2009 Posted From: 92.232.199.129 |
Well, I watched it. And I hate to say this, as a die-hard Who fan of long standing, but I thought it was rubbish. OK there were some good one-liners (eg. "First she wants to marry me, then she wants to kill me. Well, she's a woman"), but apart from that it didn't appeal to me at all. I guess it did tie up a few lose ends, but I reckon Moffatt is losing the plot. As my hubby said to me when I told him I didn't enjoy it, "Perhaps you've grown up". Gosh, I hope not! Anyway, tomorrow's looks more interesting - monsters under the bed and demonic dolls are more my kind of thing. Ah, that's a relief. I haven't grown up after all!  | ||
| Skip (Wolfnoma) Username: Wolfnoma Registered: 07-2010 Posted From: 216.54.20.98 |
And... I missed "Monsters" dag nab it! I was at HF13 in PA. Guess I'll have to stay up late and watch the rerun. |