| Author | Message | ||
     Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Wow. Woke up to a New America, a new world. | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.186.183 |
Yep - it'll be interesting (as Gary pointed out elsewhere) to see how things go from here on. I think there will be a change for the better, though how much of a change remains to be seen, of course. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.235.182 |
Remember how full of hope everyone was when Blair got it...? I genuinely hope Obama does well, however. For all our sakes. Ain't gonna be easy. Like taking over an asylum. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
It's certainly a historic day, and there seems to be a groundswell of much-needed optomism in not only America but the rest of the world. This is a massive defining moment in U.S. history. I genuinely hope the man lives up to his promise - God knows we all need someone to pin our hopes on. It's a pity UK politics is never this exciting - that idiot Cameron is already trying to adopt the Obama-rhetoric of "Change". | ||
| Huw (Huw) Username: Huw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 218.168.186.183 |
He won by a landslide, too - some 350 electoral votes, at last count. That's considerably more than twice the number McCain and Palin managed to garner. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Yup. First thing I did on getting up was check the news, with more than a hint of dread... I couldn't shake the fear that the Republicans might have got in after all, either fairly or by the favoured tactic of rigging elections. I really, really want to believe that Obama is what he's being put across us- god knows the US and the rest of the world needs a new FDR now. I'm just afraid he might turn out to be an American version of Blair. Still, a McCain/Palin Presidency would have been a nightmare. Thank God, they didn't get in. For once I'm actually halfway happy to be part of the 51st State...  | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
And still you get idiots ringing up Radio Leeds sayign "What's this got to do with us" and that they're sick of the coverage. Sigh. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 86.148.235.182 |
>>>I'm just afraid he might turn out to be an American version of Blair. Me, too. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
That's the fear, isn't it? | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.30.86 |
The last 8 years has just been dismal. There is a feeling, this morning, that perhaps we will have someone in a prominent position who will work towards a better future. Naive perhaps, but I'm still hoping for change... | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.37.199.45 |
It's great news for several reasons – most importantly that it's a landmark in race relations. That the phrase 'black President' is now a reality changes the world. It's also important that the USA now has a Democrat President, and one who has little appetite for colonial wars. It's another chance for America – perhaps for the West in general. And no doubt stuff will go wrong. It invariably does. But today is a great moment. It feels strange to have something new and vital to thank (rather than blame) the USA for. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Gary F- >>>Remember how full of hope everyone was when Blair got it...? Freudian slip there, Prof...? | ||
| Alansjf (Alansjf) Username: Alansjf Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 93.97.93.216 |
When I got in last night Obama had just taken Pennsylvania, and the consensus on the BBC was that it was pretty much a done deal - thank God I woke up to discover they were right. | ||
| Niki Flynn (Niki) Username: Niki Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.28.34.132 |
Yes, hooray, hooray, happy day! As an American in the UK I've often felt ashamed when people would refer to "my" country or "my" president. I'd bristle and say "Why do you think I'm over HERE???" Sarah Palin is the most frightening thing I've seen in a long time (and that includes Lord Probert's latest book  ). I don't trust ANY politician, though, so time will tell if Obama actually can make a difference or if it's all just been doublespeak. In any event, it will be nice not to have to lie and tell people I'm Canadian any more. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.199 |
I'm glad he won (and not just because I put money on him a couple of months ago!). Mainly I'm glad because we we've spent 8-effing YEARS having to look at the face of that insane chimpanzee in the Whitehouse. I don't think this represents a fundamental change in American thinking, though. There's something disturbing about Obama's speeches (touches heart, repeats platitude) and the lack of spine in his policies. Something, hollow, Blair-like. Mostly, people seem to be voting for the idea of change rather than anything substantial. As we've seen in the last decade, an ideas-vacuum is a dangerous thing. Why is it such a shock that Obama beat McCain, a man so old the only time he doesn't need to pee is when he's peeing (joke credit: Martin Short)? Blair: Girl in THE EXORCIST. Blair: Monster with heads in it's belly at the end of THE THING. All the talk about race is tiresome. It's largely the US's hang-up. Yet I see us importing it in recent years (like we don't have enough of our own hang-ups.) The voters will soon learn that it's not about race, it's always been about power. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.218.199 |
Agh... Sorry about the greengrocer's apostrophe. "its belly", not "it's belly". | ||
| Gcw (Gcw) Username: Gcw Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 217.43.119.113 |
I have lost a fiver to a mate when I bet him a few months ago that the USA would never vote a black man into the Whitehouse. I'm happy to pay & glad i was wrong. gcw | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
What's the reckoning that the usual viral emails and texts are going to start with jokes about the "black house" etc. Oh so amusing. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
It's a great day. America has surprised the world and even for this day alone has made us feel proud for it. How wrong it could have gone. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.72.252 |
I'm dreading the day that George Romero dies for all the pathetic zombie jokes that'll no doubt circulate. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.72.252 |
You're right, Tony. It feels like the world can breathe again. Finally we can now use the words honour, morality and justice and hope that the administration at least awknowledges that they are desirable concepts. Think of how much we've slipped morally in just 8 years -- supposedly intelligent people debating whether torture -- effing TORTURE! -- is right or wrong. Hundreds of years of moral progress rolled back very quickly, and it came from the top. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Simon B: whoops. If only... As this is a writers' board, let's remind ourselves of one pertinent thing: politicians campaign in poetry and govern in prose. Now sit back and see what happens. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
politicians campaign in poetry and govern in prose. I like that. You have a great future as a spin doctor. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Dylan Moran once described George Bush as a poet and a seer. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Funnily enough, Zed, I nicked that phrase from Alaister Campbell.  Let's hope Obama's 'prose' isn't anything like Jeffrey Archer's or even Benjamin Disraeli's... | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I've read his prose. It's very good. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Ahem. Yeah. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
You mean you have too? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
No, I meant I was referring to his politics, not his writing. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Thing is, I just don't feel comfortable with all this talk of 'change', nor the way Obama is being heralded as a 'saviour'. I'm not sure it's healthy to put so much faith in one person (however poweful) when change is very clearly a collective process. It's Fromm's Fear of Freedom at work, I fear: "Lead us, please, for we know not what to do." | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
I turned the radio on this morning with a certain dread, and for a moment couldn't believe it had actually happened. In a sense whether Obama succeeds at acomplishing some of the unrealistic expectations or not doesn't really matter. What matters is that the United States voted for change and hope. That may well be Obama's greatest change already acomplished. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I think it does matter, personally. I read recently about the ascendance of the ANC to South African government and how the poorest Blacks are now in just as desperate position as they were during Apartheid. What happened today was a monumental paradigm shift in global discourse. But without the underlying referents also being transformed, it may amount to just so many resedimented words. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I was wrong above to say we should sit back and see what happens. Now's the time for monitoring and regulation, much like the banks require. Those in power need to feel the breath of the people down their necks, and not the breath of star-struck awe. That's what celebrities are for. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
He has the same good-will directed his way and all the political gifts that Tony Blair had. I turned the radio off today after the initial news of Obama's victory, because so many commentators were rushing into the cynicism of negativity. Today was a day to breathe the history in the air, not fart about nay-saying. Obama's following a guy who looked surprised at every other word he read off the auto-cue. Obama's great gift may be resolution through discourse following expectations set up by his powerful oratory. His acceptance speech was Kennedyesque. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Seems to me that Obama was the only one not getting carried away. And that's promising, I hope. When I say discourse, I didn't mean speeches. I meant in the Foucauldian sense. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
All right, fuck it, he's going to turn the world into paradise! | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
His acceptance speech was Kennedyesque. That's exactly what I thought, mate. Gary - allow us at least a modicum of uncharacteristic optimism in these dark times, please?  | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Yeah - it feels like we're noticing King Arthur's socks are skew-whiff. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Today Obama and the US made me think change was possible, and do-able, and that the world can be changed. Even if nothing happens and he sits round on his ass watching tv for the rest of his term he did that. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.219.211 |
I agree, Tony. But we're right to question it, keep an eye on it, too. Optimism and realism aren't incompatible. If they were, how depressing would that be? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I suppose so. But I'll temper my optimism if some of you guys temper your other thing, yeah? | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
Also I suppose I was wanting my pleasure not to be knocked so early. It would fade fast enough naturally, no doubt. But a figurehead can charge you up, I think, can give you power too, just by example. It's why the dearth of positive heroes and role models seems to be running hand in hand with our shabby society. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Question everything...but don't allow that to get in the way of occasionally feeling upbeat about things, even if they do turn to shit in the end. This is the most positive I've felt about our shitty world in a year. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 204.104.55.244 |
Certainly an amazing historic moment. Thing is, he has a huge mess to clean, massive. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>Question everything...but don't allow that to get in the way of occasionally feeling upbeat about things, even if they do turn to shit in the end. I think it's more about being realistic and not succumbing to impossible expectations. Obama is a potentially respectable boss and not a Messiah. As Simon B implies above, he has an opportunity to do what FDR managed in the 1930s, but this will be dirty work. FDR: "This nation asks for action, and action now." It's the whole world now, though. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Obama used to teach law at Chicago University, whose invisible-hand/laissez-faire School of Economics is arguably responsible for the finanicial mess he has to deal with now. Obama has said that he's committed to this form of economics and that he believes in free trade. Some of his advisors are Wal-Martians. Worrying? | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Let's just give the guy a chance, eh? He was better than the alternative, George-Bush-lite. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Obama is a potentially respectable boss and not a Messiah. I don't think anyone here is claiming that he's a messiah, mate. We're just pleased that there's a slight note of optimism about, and are hoping that it's well-founded. Any elected politician is simple the lesser of several evils: we try to vote in the one who'll do the least damage. Sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't. At least in the U.S. there was a clear demarcation between the two rivals. Here in the U.K. there isn't: they're both quite obviously shite, and ver similar shite at that.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Of course! I was merely making the point that a lot of the problems he's going to have to deal with (ecological issues, unfettered globalisation, social inequality, corporate exploitation, etc) are born of the very economic system he appears to endorse. I think that needs questioning. I do know he has Keynesian advisors, too, however. But Clinton U-turned as soon as he got in power - he promised to reform NAFTA, etc, and didn't. Whatever happens with Obama will certainly reveal where the real power in the US lies... FDR pissed a lot of influential people off and seemed to have the stomach for it. Lots hope (yes, that old opium) Obama does, too. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
A life without hope is a life barely lived at all, mate. And that's coming from an alleged pessimist (I'm actually a realist: I hope for the best but expect and plan for the worst). | ||
| Stu (Stu) Username: Stu Registered: 04-2008 Posted From: 86.29.111.57 |
>>Some of his advisors are Wal-Martians. Obama's staff includes people from Mars? No wonder everyone's excited that he got in. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
Yes, Stu, the bastardised word was deliberate. Like misspelling Blair 'Bliar'. Zed, of course I agree. As Churchill said, "The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Wise man, that Churchill. For a fatty. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
He's pertinent, too. What really solved all FDR's domestic problems was World War II... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
A good war has saved many a bad politician's bacon. Remember Thatcher and the Faulklands conflict? | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
True, but that was a heavily industrialised war of a kind that's less likely now (unless Russia really pisses the US off, but that could lead to nuclear conflict- in that kind of show-down, a new cold war would be the more likely option). Disengagement from current conflicts (Iraq, Afghanistan) would probably do the US economy a lot more good as they wouldn't be pissing money down the sink. Obama's got a wave of goodwill to ride right now, and a huge majority he can use to push through a raft of legislation- just has to get it past a Supreme Court stacked by the crooked bastards who went before. Hopefully, as well as the economy, he'll spare a thought for human rights and civil liberties, releasing the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and repeal the Patriot Acts for starters. Failing that, maybe he could use that legislation to lock up the scumbags of the Bush Administration? You say waterboarding isn't torture, Mr Cheney? Just lie down here, and you'll be able to formulate your own opinion... Just kidding about that last, obviously- as Proto said above, the very fact that these people allowed torture to become a matter of debate rather than a moral no-no is indefensible. But then the whole damn jackal pack making up the outgoing administration are indefensible. A gang of corrupt, incompetent, venal, bigoted, warmongering, fundamentalist psychopaths. And those were their good qualities. | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.24.165.182 |
Sorry, Zed, I was referring to the Prof's post above yours. The Falklands boosted nationalistic pride and aided Thatcher's popularity, but didn't solve the country's economic problems. WW2, on the other hand, boosted the US economy because a) huge numbers of soldiers called up (as opposed to the current comparatively small professional forces) and therefore employed and b) industrial production of weaponary, munitions, tanks, ships, planes etc. It might do the same today, but I would really hope we can solve the problem without a conflict of that magnitude. Or any magnitude, ideally. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.242.142 |
Bush isn't finished his dirty work yet. Keep an eye on the Presidential pardons list in January. He's going to spring all his mates from prison, isn't he? I'll repeat, because this is important: realism and optimism are not -- cannot -- be separated. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
One possibility is a retreat into protectionism for the US, but that has its global consequences, too, and ones probably best not thought about for too long... | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I'll repeat, because this is important: realism and optimism are not -- cannot -- be separated. I'd argue that realism and pessimism are not -- cannot -- be separated. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
I'd argue that although realism and pessimism cannot be separated, optimism and realism can be separated, but not optimism and pessimism, especially if realism is involved; then again, if realism and idealism are in the mix, then pessmism and optimism cannot be separated unless realism and pessimism are paired up to allow idealism to flow with optimism; this is all dependent on idealism and pessimism being directly opposed to optimism and realism. Mind you... [Fry is shot] | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
I vote for all isms to be banned. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Except miserablism, which is great. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>It might do the same today, but I would really hope we can solve the problem without a conflict of that magnitude. Or any magnitude, ideally. But isn't war the only growth economic area at the moment - the only one since the dot-com bubble-burst? Well, that and the provision of medicine. And don't both rely on a constant supply of disaster? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.73.207 |
"I'll repeat, because this is important: realism and optimism are not -- cannot -- be separated. I'd argue that realism and pessimism are not -- cannot -- be separated." If both of these are true, associative mathematics implies that optimism and pessimism cannot be separated. Maths is crap, isn't it? | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>The Falklands boosted nationalistic pride and aided Thatcher's popularity, but didn't solve the country's economic problems. No, but it allowed the bitch a little more time to kick in Friedman's ideas. Bitch. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
>>>If both of these are true, associative mathematics implies that optimism and pessimism cannot be separated. They can't, of course. The half-full/half-empty glass is the same glass bearing half of its volume. | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
In other words, underlying everybody's point of view is the same world. | ||
| Karim Ghahwagi (Karim) Username: Karim Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 204.104.55.241 |
From Warren Ellis' Blog I’m delighted. Nice work, America. You got your country back. And just imagine: now, when you travel to Europe, you won’t have to tell people you’re from Canada. G’night. (4.02 am) | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Four years ago Obama was outside a hotel waiting for a cab. A bunch of rich guys saw him standing there when they pulled up with their cars and threw the keys his way, thinking he was the parking attendant. He's not done bad to go from that to President. Maybe he hocked the cars to raise his election funds! Anyway, I cried yesterday when I learned he was elected and listened to his speech. He may well turn out to be as unfortunate as Jimmy Carter, possibly the last very intelligent and decent man in the White House, but we'll see. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I saw Jimmy Carter! He came up here to Washington. Obama's been invited. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Anyway, I cried yesterday when I learned he was elected Ya big girl's blouse.  | ||
| Gary Fry (Gary_fry) Username: Gary_fry Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 82.3.65.135 |
In his later years, Reagan would probably have reached Washington up there, Tony, and started looking for The White House. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.200.51 |
"Anyway, I cried yesterday when I learned he was elected." Bloody racist. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
Tee-hee. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
Oh dear. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7715016.stm This has the feel of a school bully saying something really nasty, then accusing others of having no sense of humour. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 213.219.8.243 |
"Mr Berlusconi shrugged off the criticism, saying those who disagreed with him were humourless "imbeciles"." That's the kind of thing I used to say when I was 12 years old. :-/ | ||
| Simon_b (Simon_b) Username: Simon_b Registered: 10-2008 Posted From: 86.26.58.255 |
What do you expect of a racist cnut like Berlusconi? Just take a look at how the Italian Gypsies are getting treated. Still- we've got rid of America's noxious bigoted rightwing tossrag... with a bit of lucky Italy'll the next one to feel the benefit. Now that's an 'arc of democracy!' Sorry. Too much whisky. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
What type of whisky? A really nice one like Talisker or Balvenie doublewood? Something Ok like Grouse or something rotten like Bells or Grants. | ||
| Craig (Craig) Username: Craig Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 75.5.10.85 |
I don't trust crowds that scream, nor crowds that weep. Don't follow leaders. And watch your parking meters. | ||
| Allybird (Allybird) Username: Allybird Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 79.70.82.226 |
I've got a bottle of wine in the fridge - ooops out of the fridge. How did that get on my desk! | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
>>I saw Jimmy Carter! Have you read his novel, Tony? He was the last Democratic Presidential candidate before Obama to get over 50% of the popular vote, you know. I think he was a victim of circumstance during his presidency. Oddly similar worries for Obama, actually. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.225.78 |
I really loved Carter as a kid. I was too young to know anyting about his policies. I can only assume that nice-bloke vibes can be transmitted through the airwaves. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Yeah. He seemed like a nice guy. Probably there are major policy diasters attributal to him (there's a theory -- or was -- in politics shortly after his election defeat to Reagan that clever guys shouldn't be President because they might not take advice from their advisors) but he's certainly put his substantial money where his mouth is and done a lot of charity work since leaving office. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 89.19.88.29 |
Kennedy ignored advisors during the Cuban missile crisis who favoured bombing Cuba. That probably would have led to WW3. | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Berlusconi and Ecclestone, though. Eh? Obama's got a nice tan. The people at the Spanish Grand Prix who'd blacked up and were wearing golly wigs were just making a joke. Next they'll be telling us blacks are good at athletics because of the differences in their bodies . . . When we of course all know it's because the "Brothers" know where to get the best drugs . . . Sigh . . . And yet, I don't believe either of them were being intentionally racist. Naive maybe, or expressing a view of their generation. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.114.136 |
I think Berlusconi's remark was rather sweet natured myself. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
It could only be considered sweet if they were close friends. It was racism because it ignored everything Obama and snidely concentrated on the colour of his skin. I hate when people are divided up solely by race. Anyone See this week's Have I Got News for You?. A black American comedian made a joke using the word "cracker". Audience laughter. Is it okay to make jokes calling people "niggers" too? This particularly American compulsion to separate people into race is disheartening. There were more wearying racial cliches in the same ep. Rather than slagging off John Prescott's dance floor moves, Jo Brand self-flagellated with "that's how white people dance". | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 160.6.1.47 |
Correction: "it ignored everything Obama _was_ and snidely..." | ||
| Mark_lynch (Mark_lynch) Username: Mark_lynch Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 212.74.96.200 |
Prescott's documentary was interesting. It was hampered by a snide presenter/film maker, though, who seemed intent on portraying him as thicko from up't north, I thought. I flipped the subtitles on, cos I'd a feeling it was a stitch-up, and sure enough, Prescott's syntax remained unedited: garbled and without subject and object mostly, whereas other folk's had been cleaned up, I believe. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Obama has already upped the number of troops going into Iraq. A brand new happy dawn awaits all and sundry. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Proto - interesting points about race above. I often think that the race issue is purposely used by the media to distract us from other, bigger problems. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Of course it is. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Not just the media, actually - I was downplaying the above. | ||
| Ramsey Campbell (Ramsey) Username: Ramsey Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 195.93.21.74 |
"I hate when people are divided up solely by race. Anyone See this week's Have I Got News for You?. A black American comedian made a joke using the word "cracker". Audience laughter. Is it okay to make jokes calling people "niggers" too?" Belatedly - well, yes, pretty well. The same comedian earlier said he thought "nig-nog" sounded like a drink black folk have at Christmas. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
I'm ashamed to say that I find that quite amusing...(so very, very ashamed). | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.53.174 |
You see, it's ok to laugh at that joke - it's not mean, it's just daft names. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
"Belatedly - well, yes, pretty well." In an ideal world, where there were no boundaries to comedy and we all trusted each other's intentions, perhaps. But that's not the world I know. And I imagine audience reaction wouldn't have been so accommodating had the situation on HIGNFY been reversed. Is Michael Richards now a pariah simply because his routine wasn't funny enough? Well, that's probably true in part, but there's also a double standard where racist comments from black comedians are given much more latitude. I think that theoretically you can say anything in comedy or art, but the more sensitive the issue, the better the art must be to justify it. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Is there anyone on this board who finds the word cracker offensive? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Why? Because there is no real import or impact behind the strength of the word. I don't hear the word and think that man's a racist. Whereas the word nigger has been used and is still used to cause maximum offense, and even worse, has been utilised to threaten and highlight possible conflict and violence. I think it's laughable that after barely forty years since segration ended in the States, and barely two decades since the end of apartheid, that 'we' suddenly scream outrage at the use of the word 'cracker'. It does not, and never will be the source of verbal cruelty that the word 'nigger' has been for over a century or more. 'We' need to come down off our high horses and admit we do not feel anything akin to such an insult. Does this mean that I condone racist behaviour from people who are not white. Of course not. BUT, to have to take seriously the offense caused by cracker is silly, and quite honestly shocking. Christ, a couple of decades of a black man being allowed up on stage and everyone starts shouting of terrible injustices and of 'would it be acceptable if it was the other way round'. No racism is acceptable, but come on, being white has a terrible and tawdry history, and I think a minor, even unimportant remark like this highlights quite clearly how 'we' have no real conception of what being another colour other than white is. White has always being a ruling force, one of brutality, one of suppression for centuries. We carry that legacy. Being irked at the word 'cracker' I repeat is silly. And NO I have no real conception either. I know that. I'm white. But I can't be arsed to engage such mock outrage with a serious face. | ||
| Zed (Gary_mc) Username: Gary_mc Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.96.242.126 |
Personaly, I like crackers. Especially with a nice smelly French cheese. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
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| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 147.252.230.154 |
"...being white has a terrible and tawdry history" This is a silly, insulting thing to say, and part of the problem I discussed. Categorising people by race as you've just done IS racism. The damage it does is subtle as well as gross. It enforces superficial judgements of people, refuses to acknowledge that I have more in common with a bookish African astronomer than I do with the Western European accountant sitting next to me on the train. A couple of years back, Channel 4 showed a programme called "WHITE GIRLS ARE EASY" -- a "documentary" made by a black man about how white women are a bit slutty. Can you imagine a white man being allowed to televise a similarly odious reinforcement of racial sterotypes against black people? I'll help you out: the answer is no, and no amount of pointing at history books will make that anything other than a double standard. Racism -- all racism -- is wrong. And yes, I AM offended by the use of the word cracker, not for its historical context (of which there is little) but because of everything I've said above and because of the intent behind the word: which is to wound. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Protodroid - well, if 'cracker' offends you that is your right to feel insulted. I never said it wasn't meant to offend. I said I can't take it seriously. As for the aforementioned documentary I totally agree with you that it is an you put, 'an odious reinforcment'. And I also agree double standards exist. But you are belly-aching about one word which unseats you so emotionally. I'm talking about hundreds of years of history weighing down upon that other word. I am not categorising. I do not think or feel that anyone here, including you has the slightest hint of racism in them. And I agree it is the duty of people generally to point out double standards. But you say the word 'cracker' wounds you and I say it is not and cannot carry the intent of the word nigger. You're subjectivity doesn't mean because it does, that therefore it impacts with similar intent to the word 'nigger'. There's no justifiable modern comparison to 'nigger'. And just because I talk of 'a white tawdry history' doesn't mean it should be consigned to 'that was then, this is now'. We simply will have to disagree. And to go back to the documentary you mentioned, 'can you imagine a white man'...deceased popular working class stand-up comedian Bernard Manning and his ilk have been doing this for years...so yes, I can imagine a white man doing this. It seems you are quite observant of non-whites and their racism, yet quite lacking in observing it among ourselves. And if I am guilty of racism towards my own race, then so be it. I'd rather acknowledge that instead of focusing on the word 'cracker'. Sorry, I realise this might upset a few people but I believe I'm being honest. I'm not trying to start a thread-brawl. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
I think it's about trying to put it all into context. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
I've got a job application form for an office job with the police. One page asks competency style questions and I need to find examples to show competency in Racial diversity and understanding. How the fuck do you show competence in racial diversity and understanding - "I walked down the street yesterday, saw a couple of black guys stood on a street corner and I didn't racially abuse them"??? I'm not racist, I never have been. I don't care what colour a person's skin is as long as they treat me with respect. How the hell do you show examples that you treat everyone the same regardless of skin colour? It's the most bloody stupid question I've seen on an application so far. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
The exact question Behavioural competencies are an integral part of the recruitment process for all posts in this organisation. At paper-sifting we would like you to provide evidence of your experiences of the following two key competency areas A. Effective Communication/Negotiating and Influencing skills: B. Respect for Race and Diversity The first one is fine - the second, i'm completely stuck on how to answer it without sounding sarcastic | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Weber - everybody agrees that the language of administrative language is nonsense. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
To clarify the 'tawdry history' point. I don't see that as catgeorising. I see it as a way of using the yardstick to judge accordingly. Getting all bent out of shape and hysterical over 'cracker' needs firm analysis; too close to the bone? | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Ok. Perhaps, I'm whipping up a thread-brawl. Apologies. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
Weber - everybody agrees that the language of administrative language is nonsense. That doesn't help me to try to somehow quantify that I'm not racist. How do you demonstrate with examples that you don't use negative behaviour? This could be my chance of future employment on the line | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Weber - if the job you're looking at entails proving to a group of people to adhere to the very points their nonsensical language invokes, then do you really want to work with such dickheads? That doesn't help either, does it? Perhaps reverting to a statement such as: any possible questions posed during the interview with regards to racial diversity will be answered to your your satisfaction. | ||
| Weber_gregston (Weber_gregston) Username: Weber_gregston Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 83.98.9.4 |
It's with the police. Once you're in it's almost impossible to be forced out unless you're a complete incompetent or a criminal. As far as secure jobs are concerned it's up there with the best of them. The pay's not to be sniffed at either for what the job actually entails. So yes. I do want to work with them. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Weber - seriously, mate, good luck with the interview. If you get in, which I'm sure you will, where will you first be posted? A mate of mine was posted to the Met in London, and then posted back home to Middlesborough. He said the North East branch in comparison to his stint in London was like working for a bunch of cowboys. He resigned a year later and went back to music teaching!!! Bizarre. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.205.243 |
Good luck, Weber. I think the police know they won't necessarily get hard facts in response to that question. But their intention – to reduce the prevalence of racism in the police force – is to be applauded. If your answer implied a negative attitude towards non-white people, that would ring alarm bells with them. If I were asked a similar question, I would point to a wide range of positive social and professional experiences with non-white people as indicating that I'm comfortable in a multi-ethnic environment. A few applicants may be able to point to professional experience (e.g. as teachers) of actively demonstrating a commitment to multi-racial understanding. Most will not, because they won't have done that kind of work. The question is perfectly reasonable as long as a range of answers is acceptable. If I were applying to join the police force (not overly likely for health and other reasons), I'd be far more worried at anything that suggested the continued prevalence of racism and homophobia than at examples of apparent 'political correctness'. My brother researched racism in comedy a decade ago and discovered that the police hired comedians (including Bernard Manning) for private (official) functions where a quite disturbing degree of racist invective was taken for granted. He was able to obtain a tape of one of these performances. We're not talking 'you need a sense of humour' here. Whatever the police are doing, in the wake of the MacPherson report, to challenge that mentality is to be applauded. Regardless, Weber, stay cool and good luck. | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.212.11 |
Frank, I'm too wearied to respond in full. I'll just let anyone who's interested read the above text and decide if my points were fairly represented or not. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.36 |
Proto, I assume you're talking about Frank's postings yesterday, not my posting today. Your perspective and his differ only in minor respects, and I don't think there's a disagreement in any real sense – just different shades of the same view. I would add – not in contradiction to anyone – that I tend to hear 'cracker' (when used by black people) as a historically weighted word that refers to white racists in the American South of the past. So, for example, when Billie Holliday was asked what 'pastoral' meant in the song 'Strange Fruit', she said: "Pastoral is when the crackers kill the niggers." The word's use in a present-day context might or might not be justifiable, depending on who exactly was being referred to. It sounds likely that the word was being used in an unnecessary and provocative way, but that's probably for other people to decide. And when white Southerners use 'cracker' as a vulgar, affectionate, quasi-dialect term about themselves, that adds a further shade of meaning that makes the word's survival in popular usage very much more likely. There are recent examples in the fiction of Edward Lee. | ||
| Joel (Joel) Username: Joel Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 91.110.172.36 |
As Lenny Bruce observed back in the sixties, the most common slang term for a white Southerner is 'shitkicker'. Is that more or less offensive? | ||
| Protodroid (Protodroid) Username: Protodroid Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 78.152.204.161 |
Yes Joel, I wasn't referring to your comments. It's not so much particular words (which are, after all, only vibrations in the air) -- it's the intentions behind them that can sting. To attempt to wound is to wound. | ||
| Tony (Tony) Username: Tony Registered: 03-2008 Posted From: 81.157.53.174 |
I've not heard the word cracker till today. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Protodroid - let's just agree to disagree. You feel offended and I don't. Simple. But please, telling me you're too wearied over a slight airing of viewpoints, smacks a little of the wise all knwoing seer having to humour the backward simpleton. | ||
| Frank (Frank) Username: Frank Registered: 09-2008 Posted From: 79.187.206.46 |
Protodroid - Maybe I'm not sensitive enough and you do feel truly grieved, if so then apologies for dismissing your viewpoint. Okay? Truce? |